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Subject: Tori Hanzo / Net Shield (round 2) rss

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Cedric Bertolini
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Don't flame me, I'm aware of the recent ruling. I'm also aware that Lukas promised more info in the next FAQ. But nobody can say when that FAQ arrives, and I have a few questions.

Let's say the Corp has 2 scored House of Knives with their counters.
Let's say the Runner has an installed Net Shield.
The Runner initiates a run on a server with a rezzed Tori Hanzo.

Situation 1

The Corp uses a HoK counter ; the Runner doesn't react ; the Corp uses Tori Hanzo ; the Runner takes a brain damage.
Then the Corp uses a second HoK counter. Can the Runner use Net Shield?

Situation 2

The Corp uses a HoK counter ; the Runner prevents the damage with Net Shield.
Then the Corp uses a second HoK counter. Can the Corp use Tori Hanzo?

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Sonny A.
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If runner doesn't prevent the first net damage in a turn, then the runner forfeits using Net Shield that turn entirely.

It's the first damage or nothing.

Edit: I see how that doesn't really answer the question in regards to Hanzo. Looking forward to that FAQ.
 
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Chris Long
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1. Yes
2. No

In the first situation, the first net damage was changed to brain damage and so never happened. In the second situation, the first net damage was triggered but prevented.
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Robert S
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radynski wrote:
1. Yes
2. No

In the first situation, the first net damage was changed to brain damage and so never happened. In the second situation, the first net damage was triggered but prevented.

Funny I would say the opposite

1. No
Because the first HOK token triggers the first net damage that turn (and therefore that run) and both cards Tori and Net Shield meet their trigger conditions. But Net Shield can fire first because Prevent can interrupt.

2. Yes
Because with the first HOK token the corp never did any net damge, so therefore the first instance of net damage that run is the second HOK token. If you argue that the instance of any net damage happened with the first HOK token even if it is prevented, then the con could use Tori on the first HOK token, because Tori only need an instance of net damage for ANY amount (if any includes zero). And if any doesn't include zero then there is no instance of doing any amount of net damage which would be the trigger condition on tori.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Funny, I would say "no" to both - when you trigger the HoK, you've set the first net damage of the turn, whether it gets prevented or turned to brain damage. No further instances of net damage in the run would be the "first".

This one's ambiguous enough to ask higher up, I think.
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JPG
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It depends on how the damage is dealt.

If damage from HoK is first net damage that can be prevented (or not) and then changed into brain damage, then it is the first instance of net damage and net shield can only be used on it.

My understanding is that the ruling was net damage is net damage first and may be prevented before being turned into brain damage.

This is still under consideration and may be changed, I think.

Edit: Effect is simultaneous, so runner is first during a run, therefore prevent net damage can happen before brain damage. This implies that net damage inflicted on the corp turn (that could be changed to brain damage) would happen before net shield could block it.
 
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Richard Linnell
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Can someone please post relevant card texts?
 
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Joel K
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solidhavok wrote:
Can someone please post relevant card texts?


Net Shield
1c: Prevent the first net damage this turn.


House of Knives
Place 3 agenda counters on House of Knives when you score it.

Hosted agenda counter: Do 1 net damage. Use this ability only during a run and only once per run.


Tori Hanzō
The first time you would do any amount of net damage during each run on this server, instead you may pay 2c to do 1 brain damage.
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Daniel Wray
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Quote:
Edit: Effect is simultaneous, so runner is first during a run, therefore prevent net damage can happen before brain damage. This implies that net damage inflicted on the corp turn (that could be changed to brain damage) would happen before net shield could block it.


Prevent/avoid effects break this rule. They trigger immediately in reaction to whatever they avoid or prevent. At this point my main issue with the ruling is that the Runner basically has two chances to prevent a single damage event. If I don't prevent the Net damage, I can prevent the Brain damage (Feedback Filter can do both). That just seems counter-intuative to me. I think it should be - either you pass on reacting and deal with the Net/Brain damage, or you wait until the Corp decides what the damage type is before it is sent, and react to the type indicated.
 
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Brodie
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The ruling you linked says to treat Tori and Net Shield as simultaneous effects. If they both trigger simultaneously, then necessarily, the effect that triggered them must be the first net damage of the turn/run. Therefore, the answers - until the new FAQ overrules Lukas' ruling - are:

1) No
2) No
 
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Tim Meng
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Based on the Net Shield ruling from way back in the day, there is a clear and obvious answer to situation 2: No.

It was ruled that the first net damage is the first net damage, regardless of whether it was prevented or not. This was to prevent Net Shield from constantly triggering. If you prevent the first such that it is no longer the first, then Net Shield can trigger again when the next "first" net damage is done.

Thus, the second House of Knives token does net damage that is not considered to be the "first", so Net Shield can't prevent it and Tori Hanzo cannot change it.

As for the first situation, one might infer based on the above-mentioned ruling that the answer will also be no. However, the ruling was only made in reference to preventing the net damage, not doing brain damage "instead" of net damage, so I don't know about that one. It would be better to ask.
 
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Cedric Bertolini
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update here : http://bgg.cc/article/15850800#15850800

The answer to 1/ is: "no".
 
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