David Williams
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I'd really like to know whether the confusion over large monster movement was ever resolved with an acceptable degree of clarity.

I refer of course to when monsters do and don't expand, and when they do expand then contract as part of the same activation (for example having interrupted their movement to perform an attack) whether they should use the same space.

First I try to gather as many rules and official FAQ together as possible:

a) Rules p8: Monsters follow the same movement rules as heroes when moving except that monsters cannot suffer fatigue to receive additional movement points

b) Official FAQ: When interrupting a large monster’s movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s figure on the map.

c) Rules p8: When a hero player performs a move action, he receives a number of movement points equal to his hero’s Speed.[snip] A hero may also decide to perform two move actions consecutively, in which case the hero receives movement points equal to twice his Speed.

d) Rules p16: When the monster ends (or interrupts) its movement, the overlord player places the large monster figure so that one of the spaces its base occupies includes the space where the monster ended its movement.

e) Rules p7: The hero may interrupt his movement with another action and then complete his movement after the other action is resolved.

f) Rules p8: A hero performing a move action may interrupt his movement to perform another action, such as attacking, and continue the rest of his movement after resolving the other action.

g) Official FAQ: When a figure performs a move action, that figure receives a number of movement points equal to his Speed. A figure can interrupt its move action to perform an additional move action, which gives that figure additional movement points. There is no need to differentiate the two move actions because they are both move actions. If a card instructs you to end your move action and that figure performed two move actions, then both actions end and that figure loses all unspent movement points.

For clarity: 'Move into' I use to mean moving into that space while still shrunk. 'Expand into' means it ends/interrupts its action and only 'enters' a space due to the expansion.

My own conclusions are as follows:

1. Due to (b), a large monster cannot declare a move action, open or close doors etc, unless it moves into a space from which it can perform that action. So open a door, the monster must be adjacent to the door before expansion. To attack, the shrunken form must be in a space from which it can perform the attack. This prevents some of the more excessive 'abuses' of monster expansion/contraction and I think is quite clear.

2. If a monster interrupts its movement then it gets to expand, and if it continues it must shrink again. There is no mention of this having to use the same space for expansion and contraction. For me this seems quite clear: if a monster interrupts to attack, then it expands and contracts, and the rules do not say it must use the same space both times.

3. The crucial question - when a monster uses 2 move actions, is there an interruption or not?** (See reply below) Reference (c) implies there is no interruption, that the moves are 'consecutive' and refers to movement points as a pool. This suggests to me that there is no interruption. However, (e) and (f) do not explicitly exclude move actions, but they also does not use them as an example. So far, I would say there is no interruption.

However, (g) seems to seriously throw a spanner in the works by stating a move action can interrupt another move action. But then immediately states that "There is no need to differentiate the two move actions because they are both move actions". I'm curious whether context matters in this case, that the person answering the question was thinking only of Heroes, and not the case of large monsters. Everything except the use of the word 'interruption' fits with the idea that a second move action does not constitute an interruption so far as large monster expansion/contraction is concerned.

So for now, my inclination is to ignore that 1 mention of interrupt, and treat both move actions as a single action but with double movement points. If the OL decides to add the 2nd action after the first is complete, they should use the same space as if it were declared at the start. Some might say this is pseudo-house rule but I think it's based on a reasonable interpretation of all the official rules I can find.

____________________________________________________



There are 2 points to clarify, based on the unofficial FAQ. Firstly:

Q: How does interrupting movement to attack interact with large monster movement?

A: When moving with a large monster, you always choose 1 space it occupies to count movement. If you interrupt movement to attack, you choose any space it occupies to continue movement. This could result in additional spaces moved during the movement.


I think this is OK. A genuine interruption allows the OL to choose a different space from which to expand. I have never seen any official or unofficial FAQ mention the requirement to use the same space, and this one explicitly allows it. It also explicitly states 'to attack' so the author was not necessarily intending to include the case of a 2nd move action.

Q: May large monsters interrupt a move action with another action (e.g., open door, attack) after hey have shrunk to 1x1 but before they have spent a movement point so that they can expand in a direction different than their orientation before the move action?

A: Allowed!


I believe this was stated before the official FAQ I cite above as reference (b), thus, this answer is now incorrect.


While I don't think this analysis is definitive, it seems the most balanced I can come up with. Monsters can move more than their stated speed by the expansion/contraction mechanism, but not excessively. Dash is kept in check to some extent and prevent Dragons from moving 15 spaces in 1 activation. But they still get the extra space or two for their usual expansion, and if they attack they get a bit more. Frenzy could effectively allow a Shadow Dragon to interrupt twice and get 4 additional space, but it would need a lot of space to use this effectively and I think that mitigates it to some extent.

Sorry for the long post, it was as much to try and get things straight in my own head as anything. I could still be persuaded there really is an interruption though, it just seems excessive and a bit like an oversight when the rules were written.
 
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Rafal Areinu
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Quote:
Q: May large monsters interrupt a move action with another action (e.g., open door, attack) after hey have shrunk to 1x1 but before they have spent a movement point so that they can expand in a direction different than their orientation before the move action?

A: Allowed!

I believe this was stated before the official FAQ I cite above as reference (b), thus, this answer is now incorrect.


You misunderstand that question.

DMMM
xMMM
xee

Where
x: impassable
M: monster
D: door

You shrink to this, after starting movement action:
DMee
xeee
xee

You can use door, as you are in space that allows you to do that! (b) is fulfilled. So you interrupt and end up with this:

DMMe
xMMe
xMM

Allowed! And when you shrink again you might end up with something like this:

Deee
xeee
xeM

Which was not possible before interruption.

------

As for you 3 assumptions:
1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Not entirely correct. You can make 1st movement action, finish it(and expand) and then declare another movement action. You can alternatively use both actions at once to get twice the movement points. 2nd option is useful when you, for example, want to go trough long corridor in which you won't be able to expand because of hero placement.

Also, you should be able to interrupt movement action with another, as there's nothing in the rules that wouldn't allow it.

Let's take hero as an example. (c), with your interpretation, would mean you have to declare both movement actions at once, or not at all. That would mean that hero who wants to move 8 spaces(with 4 base speed) would have to perform 2 movement actions at once, to get 8 movement points. And then traps that take away remaining points would be POWERFUL. But hero can easily just use 1 movement action, be hit by a trap, and then decide to use another movement action/fatigue to move further.

(g) only says that there is no need to differentiate between both movement actions... but doesn't say you can't differentiate when it would make a difference
 
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Dean L
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Only your 3 is wrong. Shadow Dragons do effectively have a move of 5, yes.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Orion3T wrote:
3. The crucial question - when a monster uses 2 move actions, is there an interruption or not?


The answer is, not necessarily. A monster can declare one move action, shrink, spend all movement points, expand, and then declare another move action, shrink, spend all movement points, and expand. This would give a Shadow Dragon a total of 10 movement, effectively.

On the other hand, a monster may declare a move action, shrink, spend any number of movement points fewer than its Speed, interrupt to declare a move action, expand, shrink (from any space), use the rest of its movement points (all of the points gained from the second move action and however many were left over from the first), before finally expanding. By this method, a Shadow Dragon would still only have a total of 10 movement, effectively.

OR! A monster may declare two move actions before spending any movement points, shrink down, use all of the movement points, then expand. A Shadow Dragon would only have 8 movement if it does this, but it is not required to expand (which would be useful if trying to get through a long, tight hallway).
2 
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David Williams
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Quote:
You misunderstand that question.


You're right that the question on its own would include that scenario, however there's a link to the mechanism the questioner is referring to at the end of the question. It leads here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11060575#11060575

That's different from what you describe, specifically interrupting the movement to expand onto the space necessary. It's been amended now to reflect the 1.2 FAQ - they amended the FAQ to disallow the action in that case but that doesn't invalide his answer to the question 'as asked'.

However I think you are right in another sense, that the person answering the question did interpret this way, and I agree what you describe with interrupting the movement to open the door and rotate is correct. I certainly didn't mean to suggest this isn't allowed, but thanks for clarifying.

So the answer is correct that the action in the question is allowed, however it's wrong in the sense that it appears to be stating the linked mechanism is allowed; It isn't, because the FAQ now disallows the attack action described.
 
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David Williams
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Dexter345 wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
3. The crucial question - when a monster uses 2 move actions, is there an interruption or not?


The answer is, not necessarily. A monster can declare one move action, shrink, spend all movement points, expand, and then declare another move action, shrink, spend all movement points, and expand. This would give a Shadow Dragon a total of 10 movement, effectively.

On the other hand, a monster may declare a move action, shrink, spend any number of movement points fewer than its Speed, interrupt to declare a move action, expand, shrink (from any space), use the rest of its movement points (all of the points gained from the second move action and however many were left over from the first), before finally expanding. By this method, a Shadow Dragon would still only have a total of 10 movement, effectively.

OR! A monster may declare two move actions before spending any movement points, shrink down, use all of the movement points, then expand. A Shadow Dragon would only have 8 movement if it does this, but it is not required to expand (which would be useful if trying to get through a long, tight hallway).


Thanks - I think this is a great explanation which does accommodate all eventualities. It's a bit disappointing in that I feel like large monster movement is overpowered on this interpretation (basically the best of both worlds) but I would probably agree that it's the best overall interpretation that we have.

It's also kinda thematic in the sense the monster can move crowded areas but with a penalty to their movement due to lack of room for expansion & shrinkage.

I guess my concern now is that when combined with the Dragon's immunity to pits (see my other posts on Dawnblade) this encounter appears seriously broken as the dragon can nearly always reach the exit in one activation, assuming it uses dash.
 
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