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Subject: london terror bombing rss

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andrew
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in the second world war the nazi terror bombing of london galvanized a peoples resolve. when planes flew into the world trade center in new york, once again a people stood together and thier resolve glavanized. i belive this will always be the case when indescriminant force is used against a civil population.

it seem strage then, that in the last 24 hours israel is trying so had to stiffen arab resolve against it. is it not happy unless the intire arab world in cranky with it?? sure there will always be friction but use of terror bombing tactic against a civil population in lebanon ect sure will cause issues. israel is a massively stong country (thanks to US tax payers) attacking a place that is nealy no threat to it. sure there will be the occasional minor agression form it's borders but this is part of the deal in this neck of the woods.

just as zidane was too week to take materatzis' taunts without retalliating, isreal seem too week to turn the other cheek to the minor incidents it has to indure in palastine.

i alway thought that if you were overwhelmingly stronger than your oponent. you deomstrated your streanght by ignoring them. a sort of "yeh, whatever, you can't hurt me anyway". i've always seen retaliation as a sign of weekness. i feel fighting back shows you recognize the threat and it inspires your attacker.

the jewish population endured horrible persocution in the 1930-40s. you'd have thought they would would have learned persacuting a very weak minority was wrong. i wonder if this is the upshot of "plan dalet" ???
 
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andrew
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Koldfoot wrote:
Your grammar is so atrocious that ......


no, i'm just not very good at it with out a spell checker. i'm a bit dyslexic. sorry about that.
 
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Jim Patching
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"the jewish population endured horrible persocution in the 1930-40s. you'd have thought they would would have learned persacuting a very weak minority was wrong. i wonder if this is the upshot of "plan dalet" ???"

Or maybe they're just making sure that no one has a chance to persecute them again? Maybe having something as terrible as the Holocaust looming over your recent history means you over-react to any form of aggresion?
 
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andrew
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panzer-attack wrote:

Or maybe they're just making sure that no one has a chance to persecute them again? Maybe having something as terrible as the Holocaust looming over your recent history means you over-react to any form of aggresion?


yeh.. maybee thats it...

they've realy gone for it this time. a power station and a civil air port ect.. did they realy expect to find the criminals launching the rockets there??? it's like they want the general lebanese population to rise and attack them??? if i was a member of hezbolah, i'd be delighted by the jewish responce, as my supporter base will have just gone from being mildy sympathetic to totaly hardcore.. strange..
 
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andrew
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Koldfoot wrote:
I'll kick in 5 bucks to send you to the Middle East to advise Hezbollah. They would undoubtedly place a proud illiterate dyslexic athiest, who exhibits wonderful insight into their culture into a position of authority.


i'm very flatterd you think me telling them not to incite the israelies may be effective :-)

i'm very unimpressed with the direct actions of hezbollah. they're social rebuilding programs before the election certainly were positive but i can't see how launching syrian rockets at israel is a good thing. but by the same token bombing the crap out of civilians be cause a few 50kg rockets flew accross the boder seems extream overkill. israel is a rich,nukelar power,none of the busted arse countries around them are a significant threat. israel proves time and time again it can kill arabs 50x beter than arabs can kill them. it's like they don't ever want the conflict to end.
 
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Jesse Miller
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Damn, when the Pope and the atheists start agreeing, you know the world is going to hell in a fanny pack.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060714/3/2n5ti.html
 
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Dave Lartigue
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It's totally cool. The Israelis and Lebanese are just making way for Jesus.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=264610
 
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andrew
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yossarians wrote:
Damn, when the Pope and the atheists start agreeing, you know the world is going to hell in a fanny pack.


ah! your've been reading my hobbies.(disclaimer: a fanny in australia is not the same as a fanny in north america). laugh
 
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Snoo Py
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antiussentiment wrote:
israel is a massively stong country (thanks to US tax payers)


And I can tell you, we feel the pain. We're already paying a lot for the war in Iraq (which is also aimed at protecting Israel), and we wonder when some of our money will be used against real threats for U.S. (like N.Korea).

 
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Wow, this is sort of scary. Israel makes unchecked naked aggression toward its neighbors, someone criticizes it and they are called a "weak-kneed, ignorant, flame-baiting asshole" with bad grammar...

Can someone explain to me why it is Ok for Israel to be conducting these attacks and how it is not bad for the Middle East or the world as a whole?

Please, I am eager to learn.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Israel is responding to Hezbollah attacks. The Hezbollah attacks were responding to Israeli attacks, which were responding to the kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers (I may have left out a few steps here). At each stage of response the party concerned increased the conflict level by a considerable degree. Which produces a vicious circle. Let us hope the Israeli's don't bomb Syria next.

I don't really feel able to comment on the merits of the case. Hezbollah is funded by Iran and Syria, which explains why you get USA condemning those countries for an attack by Israel on Lebanon.

 
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Mark Beyak
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I suppose I see things differently from you, and the OP.

Israel was invaded. Some of its citizen/soldiers were taken hostage others killed. They respond not with indiscriminant bombing but with surgical strikes against infrastructure, airports, bridges, road checkpoints, etc. But only after dropping leaflets! The Hezbollah respond with indiscriminant rocket attacks targeting Israeli cities and the innocent.

Seems to me you folks have it backwards again.

Insertcleverthing wrote:
Wow, this is sort of scary. Israel makes unchecked naked aggression toward its neighbors, someone criticizes it and they are called a "weak-kneed, ignorant, flame-baiting asshole" with bad grammar...

Can someone explain to me why it is Ok for Israel to be conducting these attacks and how it is not bad for the Middle East or the world as a whole?

Please, I am eager to learn.
 
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An unfortunate truth is that it is the weakness of the new Lebanese government that has led in part to the current situation. Part of the agreement whereby Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon several years ago, reinforced by a UN resolution, was that the Lebanese army was supposed to disarm Hezbollah and occupy southern Lebanon to ensure things remained peaceful. Unfortunately, the Lebanese government has never felt inclined to push the issue with Hezbollah, as they feared Hezbollah would not concede to being disarmed peacefully and as a result, a new civil war might break out. However, this left the situation untenable for the Israelis, whose northern population was left exposed to periodic attacks by Hezbollah. So now, Israel has upped the ante for the Lebanese - you were afraid of civil war and so you did nothing. Now you have war anyway, so better to do what you should have in the beginning and assert control over Hezbollah or suffer the consequences. The sad part is that no matter what, the Lebanese people will be suffering (I have a friend and business associate who is Lebanese, although he lives in Paris most of the year - his family in Beruit is so far safe, but it is a very nervous and frustrating time for him). soblue
 
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Snoo Py
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Beyak wrote:

Israel was invaded. Some of its citizen/soldiers were taken hostage others killed. They respond not with indiscriminant bombing but with surgical strikes against infrastructure, airports, bridges, road checkpoints, etc. But only after dropping leaflets! The Hezbollah respond with indiscriminant rocket attacks targeting Israeli cities and the innocent.


I hope you won't mind if I correct you.
Israel was not invaded.
Some (two) of its soldiers (not citizens) were taken hostage, others (8 soldiers) were killed by the Hezbollah. In short, the Hezbollah operated a strict military operation, with no civilian involved.
The Israel answer to this was to target some tactical objectives, but also some residential areas and there death of civilians occured. Killing civilians for military purposes is the base of terrorism, and this is what people criticize.

Now of course both parties are hammering civilians.
But anyway, in this area, war is a daily business since Israel exist, and it will be always like this as long as Israel and arab countries will be in the same area.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
I'll kick in 5 bucks to send you to the Middle East to advise Hezbollah. They would undoubtedly place a proud illiterate dyslexic athiest, who exhibits wonderful insight into their culture into a position of authority.


Argue with what he says, don't be so ad-hominem. It seems you want the flames by using such aggressive posts.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Spoken like a true, weak-kneed, ignorant, flame-baiting asshole.

Dude, totally. He should aspire to your trademark style of calm intellectual debate.
 
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Mark Beyak
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Joe Cool wrote:
Beyak wrote:

Israel was invaded. Some of its citizen/soldiers were taken hostage others killed. They respond not with indiscriminant bombing but with surgical strikes against infrastructure, airports, bridges, road checkpoints, etc. But only after dropping leaflets! The Hezbollah respond with indiscriminant rocket attacks targeting Israeli cities and the innocent.


I hope you won't mind if I correct you.
Israel was not invaded.
Some (two) of its soldiers (not citizens) were taken hostage, others (8 soldiers) were killed by the Hezbollah. In short, the Hezbollah operated a strict military operation, with no civilian involved.
The Israel answer to this was to target some tactical objectives, but also some residential areas and there death of civilians occured. Killing civilians for military purposes is the base of terrorism, and this is what people criticize.


I don't mind if you correct me at all, as long as you actually do so.

Let's all get this straight. Joe Cool, you don't view militants crossing a border to kill and capture soldiers as invading? Perhaps it is a matter of semantics but I can't think of a better description.

Joe Cool wrote:
Now of course both parties are hammering civilians.
But anyway, in this area, war is a daily business since Israel exist, and it will be always like this as long as Israel and arab countries will be in the same area.


Let's not gloss over the measured military response from Israel as oppossed to the wild rocket flinging from Hezbollah. Two different styles of conducting war, one designed to acheive objectives while minimzing loss of civilian life. The other with the objective of raining death and terror on civilians.

I have been many things in my life, wrong, being one of them. This time , however, I don't think I am, and I have never been or will I ever be an advocate for anti-Semites!
 
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Jorge Montero
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Dude,chill. I've talk to Israelis that are way less militant about this issue than you are.

In my mind, an invasion involves trying to conquer a territory with military force. What we are talking about is an incursion. Bad, agressive, blah, blah, but still not an invasion.

I'm sure that Hezbollah would love to have attack planes that were even able to attack key Israeli infrastructure with pinpoint accuracy. The thing is, rockets from across the border are way cheaper, and don't get destroyed in 5 minutes by a superior military force. Given the means they've got, I really don't see how the islamists could even attempt to target the israeli military. kidnappings and incursions would be their best bet, and those are much harder to do after the first time.

I can't say I sympathize very much with either side of this conflict: They are both acting like two schoolboys, unable to solve their differences in a peaceful manner, but without the capability or the balls to finish the conflict militarily. I'm sorry for the civilians on both sides of this. I think their leaders are failing them: The current bombings are not going to do anything but make sure the civilians on the other side feel that attacking the enemy is justified. Not exactly the best way to defuse this issues.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Arabs are also a semitic race, you know.

BBC figures have Lebanese casualties at 230, of which an unknown number were Hezbollah guerillas. Twenty-five Israelis have died, 12 of whom are Israeli soldiers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5192036.stm

The Israelis won't stop bombing South Lebanon until the Lebanese army enters South Lebanon.

 
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hibikir wrote:
Dude,chill. I've talk to Israelis that are way less militant about this issue than you are.

In my mind, an invasion involves trying to conquer a territory with military force. What we are talking about is an incursion. Bad, agressive, blah, blah, but still not an invasion.

I'm sure that Hezbollah would love to have attack planes that were even able to attack key Israeli infrastructure with pinpoint accuracy. The thing is, rockets from across the border are way cheaper, and don't get destroyed in 5 minutes by a superior military force. Given the means they've got, I really don't see how the islamists could even attempt to target the israeli military. kidnappings and incursions would be their best bet, and those are much harder to do after the first time.

I can't say I sympathize very much with either side of this conflict: They are both acting like two schoolboys, unable to solve their differences in a peaceful manner, but without the capability or the balls to finish the conflict militarily. I'm sorry for the civilians on both sides of this. I think their leaders are failing them: The current bombings are not going to do anything but make sure the civilians on the other side feel that attacking the enemy is justified. Not exactly the best way to defuse this issues.


Ok, perhaps I should chill... there.

I guess what really gets me going is that the motivations on both sides of this issue are diametrically opposed. Israel wants to exist and Islamists cannot tolerate that and use any means at their disposal to kill those people. All those that call for Israel to back off sound like they are saying "relax, take it easy, let me plunge this knife into your heart".

I know that is not what folks are really advocating for the most part but why don't we acknowledge this for what it is: A major skirmish in the Third World War (4th if you count the cold war). Islamic extremists versus the rest of the world.

It is sad that civilians on both sides are dying and getting injured. I really wish that Hezbollah had not taken this step to incite Isreal's response. Perhaps you should tell them to take a chill pill too? Maybe they will listen, ya think?
 
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Beyak wrote:


I have been many things in my life, wrong, being one of them. This time , however, I don't think I am, and I have never been or will I ever be an advocate for anti-Semites!


Don't take it for yourself, this is a very common mistake, but:
this has nothing to do with anti-semites.
Anti-semites don't like semite people, among them are the jews.
Being against Israel is not being against jews, as most jews are not israelis. The main reason for Hezbollah and Co (who are also semite people) to fight Israel is that don't want the Israelis in their area on their land (Palestine), wether the Israelis are jews or not.
In short, before Israel was created, the people from Palestine didn't care much about jews, and if instead of being jews, Israelis were Christians, they would fight them with the same energy.

 
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Beyak wrote:

I know that is not what folks are really advocating for the most part but why don't we acknowledge this for what it is: A major skirmish in the Third World War (4th if you count the cold war). Islamic extremists versus the rest of the world.



Clearly, it's utopy to think that one day islamists will accept Israel in Palestine. Ever since Israel was created 50 years ago, it has been the war, and it is not changing positively, and it will never change. There is strictly no reason whatsoever to think one day things will calm down once and for all.
The scary thing is that pretty soon, bio-weapons will be accessible, and then......

The only solution that makes sense is a solution that has happened often in history: moving population.All other solutions have been tried the last 50 years, and none of them gave good results, on the contrary, they widened the conflict, and both populations have been suffering since ever.
So either moving the hundreds of millions arabic people in an other area, or the few million Israelis, whichever seems the most realistic.

I bet that if Israel was not in Palestine or anywhere else in the middle east, it would now be a superpower like Japan for instance.
 
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Philip Thomas
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In some ways it is more of a superpower than Japan. It has more influence on world policy (through the USA) and it has nuclear weapons.

Some Arabs are willing to accept a two-state solution, at least so they say. The number is probably diminishing at the moment, though.
 
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Joe Cool wrote:
Beyak wrote:

I know that is not what folks are really advocating for the most part but why don't we acknowledge this for what it is: A major skirmish in the Third World War (4th if you count the cold war). Islamic extremists versus the rest of the world.



Clearly, it's utopy to think that one day islamists will accept Israel in Palestine. Ever since Israel was created 50 years ago, it has been the war, and it is not changing positively, and it will never change. There is strictly no reason whatsoever to think one day things will calm down once and for all.
The scary thing is that pretty soon, bio-weapons will be accessible, and then......

The only solution that makes sense is a solution that has happened often in history: moving population.All other solutions have been tried the last 50 years, and none of them gave good results, on the contrary, they widened the conflict, and both populations have been suffering since ever.
So either moving the hundreds of millions arabic people in an other area, or the few million Israelis, whichever seems the most realistic.

I bet that if Israel was not in Palestine or anywhere else in the middle east, it would now be a superpower like Japan for instance.


The reality however is that the Israelis believe they have come home, and indeed they are living on a piece of property where their kind originated (an interesting aside, and not trival, is that Biblical Israel is actually situated where the Palestinian-controlled West Bank is today. That's why some Jewish settlers don't want to leave the West Bank). Further, a historical fact is that the Jews predate the Muslims and can therefore make a viable case that they have more right to live there than the Muslims. But ultimately, the real reason that the Israelis will never move is because they own upwards to 200 nuclear warheads, and if anyone really tries to exterminate them, they will obliterate the entire region and everyone will go down with them. The Arab and Muslim (Iran not being Arab) nations in the region will eventually have to come to grips with this reality. Egypt and Jordan have already done so - the rest will need to follow.
 
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desertfox2004 wrote:
But ultimately, the real reason that the Israelis will never move is because they own upwards to 200 nuclear warheads, and if anyone really tries to exterminate them, they will obliterate the entire region and everyone will go down with them. The Arab and Muslim (Iran not being Arab) nations in the region will eventually have to come to grips with this reality.


So, say, one day, a lethal virus is spreading through Israel.
Where are they going to send their nukes?
And anyway, if you think that islamists are affraid to die, well, sorry, but I think you're wrong.
 
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