Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
37 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: The Case For Reparations rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
MGK
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ta-Nehisi Coates' (very long) article in the Atlantic is probably the most amazing piece of writing I've read this year:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MGK
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.


It took Slater eleven minutes to respond before actually reading the article! I was hoping someone would beat that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.


It took Slater eleven minutes to respond before actually reading the article! I was hoping someone would beat that.
Odd that the case it raises (Belinda Royall) was given money for crimes committed aganst her, not her ancestors.

The article makes a case for reparations, by giving examples of people who deserved (and/or deserve) compensation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.


It took Slater eleven minutes to respond before actually reading the article! I was hoping someone would beat that.


There's too much text and pictures for RSP anyway. If people can't even be bothered to read Shreve's posts, how can you expect them to digest that piece?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Boise
Idaho
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.


It took Slater eleven minutes to respond before actually reading the article! I was hoping someone would beat that.


There's too much text and pictures for RSP anyway. If people can't even be bothered to read Shreve's posts, how can you expect them to digest that piece?


I got almost halfway through it before heading back to YouTube for more Toby Keith videos. I liked all the old pictures though... people were so much more earthy then.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DWTripp wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.


It took Slater eleven minutes to respond before actually reading the article! I was hoping someone would beat that.


There's too much text and pictures for RSP anyway. If people can't even be bothered to read Shreve's posts, how can you expect them to digest that piece?


I got almost halfway through it before heading back to YouTube for more Toby Keith videos. I liked all the old pictures though... people were so much more earthy then.
It was the lack of baths.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Less about reparations then compensation for actual victims. I have no issue with the idea that people actually subjected to discrimination should be compensated, I do take issue with the idea that anyone should be legally responsible for the crimes of others.


It took Slater eleven minutes to respond before actually reading the article! I was hoping someone would beat that.


There's too much text and pictures for RSP anyway. If people can't even be bothered to read Shreve's posts, how can you expect them to digest that piece?

Reading the drivel of a lunatic is not comparable to reading a real article. One might disagree with the article posted but it is not the raving of a madman.

I see the problem with the reparations/compensation approach being first and foremost that the problems remain. Even were every black person in the US assessed and given a lump sum based on what a court determined they ought be entitled to in damages, they would just have to do it again in a few years.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:

Reading the drivel of a lunatic is not comparable to reading a real article. One might disagree with the article posted but it is not the raving of a madman.


Not being a doctor, let alone a psychiatrist, I don't feel qualified to label anyone a lunatic or a madman from their internet persona (Though quozl's self-professed love for Nickleback is troubling). Shreve has some unconventional beliefs and opinions, but then again so do a lot of people. He just has the cajones to back them up and defend them. His political posts are closer to the mark than his Sumerian ones, but I put his ancient alien theories right up there with any other religious person's theories on RSP or anywhere.

whac3 wrote:


I see the problem with the reparations/compensation approach being first and foremost that the problems remain. Even were every black person in the US assessed and given a lump sum based on what a court determined they ought be entitled to in damages, they would just have to do it again in a few years.


Which leads us to the question as to whether or not lump sums of money actually fix anything other than as "hope you feel better" gestures. The money that the government has spent on trying to fix things institutionally may have been poorly spent and the subsequent policies poorly executed, but the overall effectiveness, in theory, would be better than just handing out a check to all slave descendents and expecting them to fix their own problems. It wouldn't end, reduce or make a dent in many of the problems the urban poor deal with, some of which are outlined in that article.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave G
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
El Chupacabratwurst
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually, the article is less about financial reparations than a reckoning by Americans with their history. Fascinating read, Christopher, thank you.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
☆ ✧ ☆ ✧ ☆
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Looking at these stars suddenly dwarfed my own troubles and all the gravities of terrestrial life. I thought of their unfathomable distance, and the slow inevitable drift of their movements out of the unknown past into the unknown future. H.G. Wells
badge
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. Chief Seattle
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If anyone deserves reparations it is the Native Americans.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Boise
Idaho
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
frumpish wrote:
If anyone deserves reparations it is the Native Americans.


If anybody deserves reparations it's everybody who has ever had an ancestor no matter how ancient who was oppressed, enslaved or stolen from. First though, we have to know who's gonna pay.

As for "facing our history"... what a load of shit. Anyone who hijacks history and 100 years or 70 years or 300 years later tries to shame other people into submission is an immoral piece of shit.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DWTripp wrote:
frumpish wrote:
If anyone deserves reparations it is the Native Americans.


If anybody deserves reparations it's everybody who has ever had an ancestor no matter how ancient who was oppressed, enslaved or stolen from. First though, we have to know who's gonna pay.

As for "facing our history"... what a load of shit. Anyone who hijacks history and 100 years or 70 years or 300 years later tries to shame other people into submission is an immoral piece of shit.
What a shame you soiled a valid point with insane bollocks.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Boise
Idaho
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
frumpish wrote:
If anyone deserves reparations it is the Native Americans.


If anybody deserves reparations it's everybody who has ever had an ancestor no matter how ancient who was oppressed, enslaved or stolen from. First though, we have to know who's gonna pay.

As for "facing our history"... what a load of shit. Anyone who hijacks history and 100 years or 70 years or 300 years later tries to shame other people into submission is an immoral piece of shit.
What a shame you soiled a valid point with insane bollocks.


Attempting to shame an innocent person - or entire generation of persons - for crimes committed by totally different human beings decades or centuries ago is never a "valid point". It proves that the person attempting the shaming is of weak character and sees the shaming of others as the only way to attain a sense of self-worth (no matter how false) and hopefully, in a cloying and propitiative fashion, the approval of others he or she feels threatened by.
10 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
DWTripp wrote:
Attempting to shame an innocent person - or entire generation of persons

I didn't feel personally "shamed" or attacked by anything I read. Why did you?

Quote:
for crimes committed by totally different human beings decades or centuries ago is never a "valid point".

He drew a line from the early days of slavery through policies and acts that carry and continue directly into the 21st century so you can't say this was about things that were over decades or centuries ago. Since you weren't accused personally or specifically (unless you're a loan officer at a bank or something) you can't claim it's directed as an attack on you.

Quote:
It proves that the person attempting the shaming is of weak character and sees the shaming of others as the only way to attain a sense of self-worth (no matter how false) and hopefully, in a cloying and propitiative fashion, the approval of others he or she feels threatened by.

I think the only one who feels "threatened" is you. No one has attacked you or a group you are part of. What can be harmed by discussing a topic, which is really what this article is all about. Why do you need to try shut it down with personal attacks?
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Boise
Idaho
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
damiangerous wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Attempting to shame an innocent person - or entire generation of persons

I didn't feel personally "shamed" or attacked by anything I read. Why did you?

Quote:
for crimes committed by totally different human beings decades or centuries ago is never a "valid point".

He drew a line from the early days of slavery through policies and acts that carry and continue directly into the 21st century so you can't say this was about things that were over decades or centuries ago. Since you weren't accused personally or specifically (unless you're a loan officer at a bank or something) you can't claim it's directed as an attack on you.

Quote:
It proves that the person attempting the shaming is of weak character and sees the shaming of others as the only way to attain a sense of self-worth (no matter how false) and hopefully, in a cloying and propitiative fashion, the approval of others he or she feels threatened by.

I think the only one who feels "threatened" is you. No one has attacked you or a group you are part of. What can be harmed by discussing a topic, which is really what this article is all about. Why do you need to try shut it down with personal attacks?


This is RSP. That's my opinion about the entire subject of reparations. I never said anything about you or even the article - which I did read and which left me uninspired due to having read scores of articles and books over the last 45 years on the exact same subject. If the OP wanted to only have a limited discussion about sharecropper abuse, real estate scams and post-civil rights thievery then he could have said so... not that it would have mattered due to the OP not being in control of the internet

Further - I didn't suggest that the author was attacking me personally. Like most of the perpetually clueless RSP'ers you're projecting your own misgivings, misunderstandings and other murky attempts to rationalize your own existence onto me.

Finally - who did I attack personally? Certainly not you. Not the OP, not any person who posted. But since you brought it up to begin with - fuck you.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
flag msg tools
Heart full of soul, head full of shit
badge
Snob of the People
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wondered if someone would link to this. I haven't read it, but it's on the nightstand.

Anyway, I once had a conversation with an expert in tribal law that no only do Native Americans have a compelling moral case for reparations, they may in fact have a LEGAL case, because of broken treaty after treaty. African Americans have no such legal case, because property can't sue.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JoshBot wrote:
I wondered if someone would link to this. I haven't read it, but it's on the nightstand.

Anyway, I once had a conversation with an expert in tribal law that no only do Native Americans have a compelling moral case for reparations, they may in fact have a LEGAL case, because of broken treaty after treaty. African Americans have no such legal case, because property can't sue.


Better start looking for a new place to live. If we ever start treating Native Americans like people. So never.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MGK
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
I see the problem with the reparations/compensation approach being first and foremost that the problems remain. Even were every black person in the US assessed and given a lump sum based on what a court determined they ought be entitled to in damages, they would just have to do it again in a few years.


This assumes that reparations/compensation have to take the form of a lump sum payment. There's really no reason the government couldn't instead spend that money on social programs over the period of two or three decades instead.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mightygodking wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I see the problem with the reparations/compensation approach being first and foremost that the problems remain. Even were every black person in the US assessed and given a lump sum based on what a court determined they ought be entitled to in damages, they would just have to do it again in a few years.


This assumes that reparations/compensation have to take the form of a lump sum payment. There's really no reason the government couldn't instead spend that money on social programs over the period of two or three decades instead.

Like all the other gov't programs that have eliminated racism in America? Would you as a lawyer agree to a settlement where the money for damages was spent entirely by the principal party at fault in the hopes it would be spent for the benefit of the injured party?
2 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MGK
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Like all the other gov't programs that have eliminated racism in America?


The point is not to eliminate racism; the point is to lessen and reverse the impact of literally centuries' worth of degradation, exclusion and segregation, whether that was official or unofficial. And mostly this was not about slavery or calling black people names or not letting them drink at water fountains, but rather systemic larceny, both social and explicitly financial, perpetrated upon them once they were purportedly free.

Coates followed up his article with a briefer blog post, wherein he makes that clear:

Quote:
Talking to Ross clarified something I'd been thinking about—specifically that being black was not a matter of white people thinking you had cooties. It was something deeper and more mature. It was the branding of black people as outside of American society, outside of American law, and outside of the American social contract. And this branding was done even as black people pledged fealty to the state, paid taxes to the state, and died for the state. This was high-tech robbery, plunder at the systemic level. {Stopping} white supremacy was not about getting black and white people to sit at the same lunch table, it was about getting white people to stop stealing shit from black people—labor, bodies, children, taxes, lives.


Which is the broader point.

Quote:
Would you as a lawyer agree to a settlement where the money for damages was spent entirely by the principal party at fault in the hopes it would be spent for the benefit of the injured party?


You're speaking as if the injured party, in this instance, will have the opportunity to choose, rather than have it chosen for them - which is inevitable.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mightygodking wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Like all the other gov't programs that have eliminated racism in America?


The point is not to eliminate racism; the point is to lessen and reverse the impact of literally centuries' worth of degradation, exclusion and segregation, whether that was official or unofficial. And mostly this was not about slavery or calling black people names or not letting them drink at water fountains, but rather systemic larceny, both social and explicitly financial, perpetrated upon them once they were purportedly free.

Coates followed up his article with a briefer blog post, wherein he makes that clear:

Quote:
Talking to Ross clarified something I'd been thinking about—specifically that being black was not a matter of white people thinking you had cooties. It was something deeper and more mature. It was the branding of black people as outside of American society, outside of American law, and outside of the American social contract. And this branding was done even as black people pledged fealty to the state, paid taxes to the state, and died for the state. This was high-tech robbery, plunder at the systemic level. {Stopping} white supremacy was not about getting black and white people to sit at the same lunch table, it was about getting white people to stop stealing shit from black people—labor, bodies, children, taxes, lives.


Which is the broader point.

Quote:
Would you as a lawyer agree to a settlement where the money for damages was spent entirely by the principal party at fault in the hopes it would be spent for the benefit of the injured party?


You're speaking as if the injured party, in this instance, will have the opportunity to choose, rather than have it chosen for them - which is inevitable.

Which is why I oppose the farce of reparations. If the injured parties got rel money for damages, that would be one thing. This is nothing but yet another scheme that assuages white guilt while doing squat for the real problems of black people in the US.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Steak Fairy
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Games? People still play games??
badge
Specious arguments are not proof of trollish intent.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Unlike other Joshes whom I could name, I actually read my copies of The Atlantic the day they arrive. They never make it to the nightstand. Usually I get El Rey beef and bean burrito junk all over them, and turn the pages with fingers still wet from fishing out the last Tomolive from the jar. I miss the puzzles.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damian
United States
Enfield
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
This is nothing but yet another scheme that assuages white guilt while doing squat for the real problems of black people in the US.

Wait, what? What "scheme"? The author didn't propose any sort of scheme whatsoever. Also, even a passing familiarity with Coates would show he is about as far from someone who wants to "assuage white guilt" as possible.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MGK
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Which is why I oppose the farce of reparations. If the injured parties got rel money for damages, that would be one thing. This is nothing but yet another scheme that assuages white guilt while doing squat for the real problems of black people in the US.


I disagree. If you want to put it into hard-dollar terms, you can use the methodology Boris Bittker used (difference in per capita white income and black income, times number of black people):

PC white income: $33,030
PC black income: $27,101
Difference: $5,929
Times 37,685,848 black Americans: $223.4 billion

If you divide that over twenty years that's $11.2 billion dollars per year of social reinvestment in the black community. That's basically a NASA's worth of money. You could do a hell of a lot with it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.