Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » General

Subject: Leaving the fight rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
CWattie
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I was an early supporter of SMG but the time has come for me to leave the fight and head to the rear.

I enjoyed the games of SMG I played but the simple truth is it ended up opening the door into the broader world of wargaming for me. Once through that door, I found Advanced Squad Leader and I haven't had time or funds for SMG since. That shouldn't be taken as a knock on SMG. It is a fine system and the additions brought to the system over the last few years are outstanding. I see it continuing to grow in popularity over the coming years and predict it will enjoy a robust following of players.

Keep fighting the good fight LBG. I'll be around on BGG but don't plan to keep any of my SMG stuff so won't be frequenting these forums.

Until we meet again...keep your head down and your trigger finger itchy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mayor Jim
United States
Fort Wright
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Vote Often!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry to see you go...but a big welcome to the wonderful world of wargaming. Glad SMG was the vehicle to open the doors for you...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Team Ski
United States
Dover
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
CHOMP!!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MayorJim wrote:
Sorry to see you go...but a big welcome to the wonderful world of wargaming. Glad SMG was the vehicle to open the doors for you...


The problem was that he paid for a Cadillac before settling for a Chevy.

-Ski
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mayor Jim
United States
Fort Wright
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Vote Often!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Teamski wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Sorry to see you go...but a big welcome to the wonderful world of wargaming. Glad SMG was the vehicle to open the doors for you...


The problem was that he paid for a Cadillac before settling for a Chevy.

-Ski
true that...except he can now have a fleet of Chevies...that run...vs a Caddy that looks good but keeps going into the shop
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
One irony is that he traded a set of rules that are "incomplete" in areas and lead to "discussions" for a game where the rules are "overdone" in areas and lead to "discussions".

ASL has a broader player, scenario, nationality base than SMG (which is a shame) and so more to enjoy. I still find more "reality" in the SMG rules than the ASL rules (which I abandoned 7 years ago).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mayor Jim
United States
Fort Wright
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Vote Often!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Seems to me that SMG is inexorably moving toward being an ASL clone...without all the detailed rules though whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
MayorJim wrote:
Seems to me that SMG is inexorably moving toward being an ASL clone...without all the detailed rules though whistle
Possibly. The biggest differences that I see are that SMG is a more tactical game while ASL is more chess-like (with its known gambits and exploits).

Also, I find SMG entertaining.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Team Ski
United States
Dover
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
CHOMP!!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
martimer wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Seems to me that SMG is inexorably moving toward being an ASL clone...without all the detailed rules though whistle
Possibly. The biggest differences that I see are that SMG is a more tactical game while ASL is more chess-like (with its known gambits and exploits).

Also, I find SMG entertaining.


Funny, I see it the other way around completely!

-Ski
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mayor Jim
United States
Fort Wright
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Vote Often!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Teamski wrote:
martimer wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Seems to me that SMG is inexorably moving toward being an ASL clone...without all the detailed rules though whistle
Possibly. The biggest differences that I see are that SMG is a more tactical game while ASL is more chess-like (with its known gambits and exploits).

Also, I find SMG entertaining.


Funny, I see it the other way around completely!

-Ski
As do I
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
So why are you still here? Sell your SMG stuff and go on with your lives.

I gave up on ASL and have had a lot of fun since. It was tough to give up the emotional attachment but once I did my life improved.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Ambush!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Easy to agree that ASL is more chess like and less tactical than SMG. They each have their own gaming appeal. ASL is certainly more of a gaming culture, sometimes an exclusively dedicated way of life. It's understandable that for many gamers that just isn't fun anymore.

The biggest difference I see is that ASL uses an open book math system. The SMG system is entirely different and completely proprietary, thus theoretical only for the gamer. This is both its strength and its weakness. The mystery math gives us soldier uniqueness, but the historical precedent of occasional glitches is troubling.

With those issues still in recent hindsight, there is much raw faith required from SMG buyers that Jeff's math is truly trustworthy. The imminent introduction of a promotional roster system requires yet another major act of faith where we don't get to look behind the curtain and identify how everything actually relates to anything else. We'll never know how well SMG really works.

Hopefully further confusion and frustration with SMG isn't destined to become the new normal. Many of us who still enjoy playing the game and yet also have this underlying common concern are in a buyer's holding pattern. Jeff is competent and talented to be sure, but also focused on many different directions and it's getting more and more difficult to forgive and forget any glitches that pop up due to a mad rush to release new products. Jeff has said in the past that he has heard our desire for LBG getting things right instead of fast, yet I fear he may only have one speed while also struggling with too many ideas and little actual desire for completing them before pursuing the next big thing.

I'd like to see more outspoken statements of intent and committed action from LBG to completely assimilate the ever increasing SMG expansions already published into a codified rules supplement. I wish they'd collectively focus on finishing this rules foundation before stacking anymore levels of complexity onto a stress fractured base. I'm not leaving the game (yet) but I'm also done tilting at rule windmills. LBG needs to realize that many of us are PMing each other regularly and mutually agree that SMG needs basic improvements before major expansions to avoid critically eroding its fan base.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Team Ski
United States
Dover
Delaware
flag msg tools
badge
CHOMP!!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
R M Chair General wrote:
Easy to agree that ASL is more chess like and less tactical than SMG. They each have their own gaming appeal. ASL is certainly more of a gaming culture, sometimes an exclusively dedicated way of life. It's understandable that for many gamers that just isn't fun anymore.


ASL is far less chesslike than SMG by a mile! ASL doesn't put ahistorical values on certain rifles as you see in SMG. A Garand rifle isn't more inaccurate at close range than it is at long range. The entire range system in SMG is perhaps more chess-like than any wargame I have ever played. You actually have to position your rifles further away in order for them to be the most efficient. Sounds like a bishop to me. Things are not harder to hit close up no matter what weapon you have. By artificially making certain weapons a poor shot at close range vs. lets say a submachine gun is downright "chessy" to me. I just don't see it!!

-Ski
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While I've never played ASL, I can say that I've never felt that SMG felt chessy. With the soldiers being different and even the values of the same weapons often being different from one another (based on the soldier's ability, background etc.), it has never felt that certain soldiers/weapons are pigeonholed into specific roles each game.

Variety in story cards that give actions, as well as different action cards in a deck or hand, make it more on the fly tactics as opposed to a rock/paper/scissors puzzle or math formula.

Like I said, I have never played ASL, but if it has chits representing units and you know you have to have x amount/type of units to beat y amount/type of units, then that seems more chess like to me. But again, that may not be how ASL is.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
R M Chair General wrote:

I'd like to see more outspoken statements of intent and committed action from LBG to completely assimilate the ever increasing SMG expansions already published into a codified rules supplement. I wish they'd collectively focus on finishing this rules foundation before stacking anymore levels of complexity onto a stress fractured base. I'm not leaving the game (yet) but I'm also done tilting at rule windmills. LBG needs to realize that many of us are PMing each other regularly and mutually agree that SMG needs basic improvements before major expansions to avoid critically eroding its fan base.


Well supposedly Rob Belli was going to be working on updating rules and such for the expansions. Of course with DDS going on, it seems like he's too busy helping with that to worry about SMG. Same with the LBG website having a bunch of "under construction" sections. One could think that perhaps after DDS is delivered that Rob and Jeff can get back to tightening up stuff for the expansions and such, but then again, they may be off doing their convention tour like last summer and have little time for SMG. And/or, they may be working on their next KS for the tanks and be too busy with that to go back and put any kind of effort into past released stuff. Seems like an endless cycle of being too busy with the next release to worry about any prior releases.

Well the great thing about the gaming industry now, is that there are a ton of games to choose from and more released every day. We're not locked into a situation where we are at the mercy of any one game company. LBG needs to keep in mind that there is always someone else ready and willing to take our money.

I love the game, but I'm at the point where I'm happy with what I've got and have enough that I don't feel compelled to keep dumping money into expansions that aren't worth the time of LBG to flesh out fully.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Ambush!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Teamski wrote:
R M Chair General wrote:
Easy to agree that ASL is more chess like and less tactical than SMG. They each have their own gaming appeal. ASL is certainly more of a gaming culture, sometimes an exclusively dedicated way of life. It's understandable that for many gamers that just isn't fun anymore.


ASL is far less chesslike than SMG by a mile! ASL doesn't put ahistorical values on certain rifles as you see in SMG. A Garand rifle isn't more inaccurate at close range than it is at long range. The entire range system in SMG is perhaps more chess-like than any wargame I have ever played. You actually have to position your rifles further away in order for them to be the most efficient. Sounds like a bishop to me. Things are not harder to hit close up no matter what weapon you have. By artificially making certain weapons a poor shot at close range vs. lets say a submachine gun is downright "chessy" to me. I just don't see it!!

-Ski
thumbsup Yeah, those are interesting observations too, Ski. Both games are certainly abstracted a great deal and in different ways. And the chess metaphor is proving itself inapplicable.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Ambush!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hahma wrote:
R M Chair General wrote:

I'd like to see more outspoken statements of intent and committed action from LBG to completely assimilate the ever increasing SMG expansions already published into a codified rules supplement. I wish they'd collectively focus on finishing this rules foundation before stacking anymore levels of complexity onto a stress fractured base. I'm not leaving the game (yet) but I'm also done tilting at rule windmills. LBG needs to realize that many of us are PMing each other regularly and mutually agree that SMG needs basic improvements before major expansions to avoid critically eroding its fan base.


Well supposedly Rob Belli was going to be working on updating rules and such for the expansions. Of course with DDS going on, it seems like he's too busy helping with that to worry about SMG. Same with the LBG website having a bunch of "under construction" sections. One could think that perhaps after DDS is delivered that Rob and Jeff can get back to tightening up stuff for the expansions and such, but then again, they may be off doing their convention tour like last summer and have little time for SMG. And/or, they may be working on their next KS for the tanks and be too busy with that to go back and put any kind of effort into past released stuff. Seems like an endless cycle of being too busy with the next release to worry about any prior releases.

Well the great thing about the gaming industry now, is that there are a ton of games to choose from and more released every day. We're not locked into a situation where we are at the mercy of any one game company. LBG needs to keep in mind that there is always someone else ready and willing to take our money.

I love the game, but I'm at the point where I'm happy with what I've got and have enough that I don't feel compelled to keep dumping money into expansions that aren't worth the time of LBG to flesh out fully.
Exactly, even if some small percentage of this massive amount of human energy were diverted to doing annual rules updates.

Perhaps every year another comprehensive update is done to incorporate the previous year's new releases. Easy and worth the time investment. An investment that pays dividends measurable in real money from continued customer satisfaction and loyalty.

It is simply true that there are way too many competitor games every bit as good and desperate for our limited gaming funds while possessing the audacity of costing significantly less. They all sing a wicked siren song of satisfaction in greener lands.

And so, hopefully not too often, sometimes we lose a man to ASL. That's the way she goes, eh?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
ASL uses dice, so it is not completely deterministic. The "chess-like" qualities to me come more from the need to understand the various gambits and "sleaze tactics" (exploiting the rules to gain advantages that would not occur in a "real fire fight"). It feels more like chess because each of these well-known gambits has to be recognized and then overcome - just like in chess.

SMG feels less like chess to me because it seems that it is more open. Yes there are some unusual "game pieces" that behave in possibly ahistorical or unrealistic manners but that is easily overcome by just simply not using those pieces. I have used a couple and I found I had more than enough to do without worrying about the "issues" and so still had fun. I have found that when I use historical tactics I get expected results. I have had a few routs as well.

In the end it is all just cardboard and opinion. Move on from the games you do not like and play the games you enjoy! We can argue all day long (well, you can, I will just move on) about which game is better but that is just opinion and mostly a waste of time.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Teamski wrote:
R M Chair General wrote:
Easy to agree that ASL is more chess like and less tactical than SMG. They each have their own gaming appeal. ASL is certainly more of a gaming culture, sometimes an exclusively dedicated way of life. It's understandable that for many gamers that just isn't fun anymore.


ASL is far less chesslike than SMG by a mile! ASL doesn't put ahistorical values on certain rifles as you see in SMG. A Garand rifle isn't more inaccurate at close range than it is at long range. The entire range system in SMG is perhaps more chess-like than any wargame I have ever played. You actually have to position your rifles further away in order for them to be the most efficient. Sounds like a bishop to me. Things are not harder to hit close up no matter what weapon you have. By artificially making certain weapons a poor shot at close range vs. lets say a submachine gun is downright "chessy" to me. I just don't see it!!

-Ski


Not sure what you're saying here Ski. All weapons in SMG will hit more at closer range than at longer.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
charlest wrote:
Teamski wrote:
R M Chair General wrote:
Easy to agree that ASL is more chess like and less tactical than SMG. They each have their own gaming appeal. ASL is certainly more of a gaming culture, sometimes an exclusively dedicated way of life. It's understandable that for many gamers that just isn't fun anymore.


ASL is far less chesslike than SMG by a mile! ASL doesn't put ahistorical values on certain rifles as you see in SMG. A Garand rifle isn't more inaccurate at close range than it is at long range. The entire range system in SMG is perhaps more chess-like than any wargame I have ever played. You actually have to position your rifles further away in order for them to be the most efficient. Sounds like a bishop to me. Things are not harder to hit close up no matter what weapon you have. By artificially making certain weapons a poor shot at close range vs. lets say a submachine gun is downright "chessy" to me. I just don't see it!!

-Ski


Not sure what you're saying here Ski. All weapons in SMG will hit more at closer range than at longer.


Yeah Charlie, while the ranges may differ and not all Garands will have the same range because of the differences of the soldiers, close range has more Hits than short range and short more Hits than long range.

Not sure why positioning rifles further away would be more efficient, when they will have a better chance of hitting at closer ranges.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Di Ponio
United States
Lake Orion
MI
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have both systems for different reasons. When I want to sit and think and play something deep, ASL comes out. When I want a relatively quick game of just pure fun and fast action I go to SMG.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Belli
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Hahma wrote:
Well supposedly Rob Belli was going to be working on updating rules and such for the expansions. Of course with DDS going on, it seems like he's too busy helping with that to worry about SMG. Same with the LBG website having a bunch of "under construction" sections. One could think that perhaps after DDS is delivered that Rob and Jeff can get back to tightening up stuff for the expansions and such, but then again, they may be off doing their convention tour like last summer and have little time for SMG. And/or, they may be working on their next KS for the tanks and be too busy with that to go back and put any kind of effort into past released stuff. Seems like an endless cycle of being too busy with the next release to worry about any prior releases.


Greg, your right I am helping with development on DDS. But I am working on SMG just about everyday. Once we get the Kickstarter shipped, I do plan on revisiting every product we've previously released and tightening them up. Also we are working on a post 2.0 version of the rules. I cannot give a exact target date, but we will be expanding and clarifying XTerrain, Specialists and Tactics modules. Even grenades are getting some love. Take heart.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the update Rob. thumbsup

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mayor Jim
United States
Fort Wright
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Vote Often!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Heart be still kiss...XTerrain, Specialists, Tactics...and Grenades, oh my! ....thanks
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Ambush!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rbelli wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Well supposedly Rob Belli was going to be working on updating rules and such for the expansions. Of course with DDS going on, it seems like he's too busy helping with that to worry about SMG. Same with the LBG website having a bunch of "under construction" sections. One could think that perhaps after DDS is delivered that Rob and Jeff can get back to tightening up stuff for the expansions and such, but then again, they may be off doing their convention tour like last summer and have little time for SMG. And/or, they may be working on their next KS for the tanks and be too busy with that to go back and put any kind of effort into past released stuff. Seems like an endless cycle of being too busy with the next release to worry about any prior releases.


Greg, your right I am helping with development on DDS. But I am working on SMG just about everyday. Once we get the Kickstarter shipped, I do plan on revisiting every product we've previously released and tightening them up. Also we are working on a post 2.0 version of the rules. I cannot give a exact target date, but we will be expanding and clarifying XTerrain, Specialists and Tactics modules. Even grenades are getting some love. Take heart.
Rob, that is some encouragement but the information regarding the United States Custom Sergeant opportunity was not communicated well and was for some reason attached to a kickstarter that understandably would not interest many long time SMG fans.

What can be done for those of us in the situation where we don't want to 'leave the fight' but have certainly been left out of a significant part of it merely because we can no longer afford to support every KS? I'm still willing to support this system IF I have this part of my collection completed. Is that even going to be possible without further massive investment? I truly hope so.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.