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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Errata for Super Rares rss

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Bobby Picker
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Would adding the following errata line to SRs help balance them.

"[SR Name] die can't be re-rolled during your re-roll phase"

Seems like this would help reduce the odds of Black Widow or Gobby being fielded and make them more balanced.

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Cristiano Cozzolino
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Vandal2002 wrote:
Would adding the following errata line to SRs help balance them.

"[SR Name] die can't be re-rolled during your re-roll phase"

Seems like this would help reduce the odds of Black Widow or Gobby being fielded and make them more balanced.



Based on how many games? It sound strange that so early from the release there is already need for card fix/changes.
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ICE 0ne
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Gobby is easy enough to deal with if you deal with their sidekicks. If they did anything, which I doubt they will, the better option might be to reduce black widow's attack trigger to 1 damage.
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Ad Astra Per Aspera
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I would imagine there will not be any errata. The cards will be dealt with in future expansions via new mechanics or counter cards.
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Thomas Landy
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Errata should only be implemented for broken game elements. The SRs are powerful, but nowhere near broken. I think it just seems that way to some people because if you lose a game and there is a SR in there, then the SR becomes the culprit, as opposed to the skill/luck of the player.
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J. H. Horatio
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H00D4M4N wrote:
Errata should only be implemented for broken game elements. The SRs are powerful, but nowhere near broken. I think it just seems that way to some people because if you lose a game and there is a SR in there, then the SR becomes the culprit, as opposed to the skill/luck of the player.


There are no cards that can't be countered - that is correct. However, the current state of affairs is such that you are either rushing with the SRs or focusing exclusively on stopping them. The fact that this can be done fairly effectively is irrelevant - the main problem is that this dynamic has essentially banished 2/3s of the cards in the game (and basically every high cost card) to unplayability. Seeing as more than half the cards in the game are 5,6 and 7 cost, I can't imagine this was the designers' intention.

Also, the fact that the rules are fairly haphazardly and unclearly written with lots of mistakes and misprints tells me that this game was not as finished and play-tested as it could have been. Also, some cards that seem effectively identical tells me that we are missing some nuance of an intended gameflow timing. All us early-adopters who are actually lucky enough to have this game are essentially a free beta test for WizKids and we should treat it as such.

As for errata, I only think that Gobby and Tsarina need either a +1 energy cost boost or perhaps be limited to 2 dice per card, which is probably the better solution. An arbitrary reroll limit interferes too much with the actual gameplay to be usable. Plus, if you want to do that, get Prof X out there.

In any event, the point is not to help beat the SRs (that is already possible) - the point is to open up this game beyond solely focusing on beating the SRs.
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Thomas Landy
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jhoratio wrote:
H00D4M4N wrote:
Errata should only be implemented for broken game elements. The SRs are powerful, but nowhere near broken. I think it just seems that way to some people because if you lose a game and there is a SR in there, then the SR becomes the culprit, as opposed to the skill/luck of the player.


There are no cards that can't be countered - that is correct. However, the current state of affairs is such that you are either rushing with the SRs or focusing exclusively on stopping them. The fact that this can be done fairly effectively is irrelevant - the main problem is that this dynamic has essentially banished 2/3s of the cards in the game (and basically every high cost card) to unplayability. Seeing as more than half the cards in the game are 5,6 and 7 cost, I can't imagine this was the designers' intention.

Also, the fact that the rules are fairly haphazardly and unclearly written with lots of mistakes and misprints tells me that this game was not as finished and play-tested as it could have been. Also, some cards that seem effectively identical tells me that we are missing some nuance of an intended gameflow timing. All us early-adopters who are actually lucky enough to have this game are essentially a free beta test for WizKids and we should treat it as such.

As for errata, I only think that Gobby and Tsarina need either a +1 energy cost boost or perhaps be limited to 2 dice per card, which is probably the better solution. An arbitrary reroll limit interferes too much with the actual gameplay to be usable. Plus, if you want to do that, get Prof X out there.

In any event, the point is not to help beat the SRs (that is already possible) - the point is to open up this game beyond solely focusing on beating the SRs.


The rules are actually fairly well written. Many of the questions that I've seen posted in the rules section on BGG are answered in the rules. Could some parts be a bit more clear? Maybe. But this game is a hell of a lot more straightforward than Attack Wing.

I'm still against raising costs as errata, because it means you have to lug around some kind of documentation that says "btw, that 2 on this card I'm using should be a 3." It's a quick fix, but a knee jerk reaction to a game that people are still discovering combos for.

If it's still perceived as an issue, then perhaps something like a rule stating only one SR card per player would balance things out (I.e. if you have Gobby, then you can't have Canucklehead). It would just be added into the next rules document and doesn't alter actual cards in any way.
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john Blevins
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The best way to fix the super rare "problems" (which I disagree are even there) would be to only allow one super rare per team. Despite the consensus of bgg, not every card has to be bad
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Russ Rivet
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H00D4M4N wrote:
Errata should only be implemented for broken game elements. The SRs are powerful, but nowhere near broken. I think it just seems that way to some people because if you lose a game and there is a SR in there, then the SR becomes the culprit, as opposed to the skill/luck of the player.



THIS^^^^
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Chris Long
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jhoratio wrote:
All us early-adopters who are actually lucky enough to have this game are essentially a free beta test for WizKids and we should treat it as such.


No. We are not a beta test, and we should definitely not treat the game as such. You advocate madness.
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Martin Hristoforov
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go find my tournament winning deck list that i have posted on multiple occasions. it is just commons/uncommons and me (and a few others that have used it) have yet to lose to a gobby/tsarina deck and to any other deck for that matter. the only loss i am aware of was from a 7 colossus... just in case you can't find the list

4 storm wind rider
4 beast 666
3 hawkeye
3 gambit ace in the hole
3 human torch johnny storm
1 magneto with global
1 silver surfer with global
1 mr fantastic brilliant scientist

distraction/gearing up

again for write ups check my topic in general

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1176790/help-me-with-some-bu... and some discussion of it
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Martin Hristoforov
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and generally people dislike the SRs because most of the players have not played many games such as this - magic, dominion, etc. and are not used to cards that don't follow the most basic rule - you attack with a character, it deals damage only if it was not blocked. and then they get a guy that deals damage even when they have blockers galore and so on and so forth and they cry foul.

 
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Mike Bialecki
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H00D4M4N wrote:

The rules are actually fairly well written. Many of the questions that I've seen posted in the rules section on BGG are answered in the rules. Could some parts be a bit more clear? Maybe.


Really? Then can you answer these two questions for us. The amount of argument over these questions seems pretty indicative that the answers aren't nearly as clear-cut as you would make it seem.

Dear MIKE ELLIOT or ERIC LANG, Please help us understand the details on "Action Windows".

and

Timing Question - Iron Man (Philanthropist)
 
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Thomas Landy
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mbialeck wrote:
H00D4M4N wrote:

The rules are actually fairly well written. Many of the questions that I've seen posted in the rules section on BGG are answered in the rules. Could some parts be a bit more clear? Maybe.


Really? Then can you answer these two questions for us. The amount of argument over these questions seems pretty indicative that the answers aren't nearly as clear-cut as you would make it seem.

Dear MIKE ELLIOT or ERIC LANG, Please help us understand the details on "Action Windows".

and

Timing Question - Iron Man (Philanthropist)


Sure, page 20 under "Timing Conflicts." I really don't see why you are making this so difficult. Your post just includes part of the text in the rules. If you continue reading, it goes on to say a lot more.

And in regards to the Iron Man timing issue, the problem isn't really the rules. The problem is some people are focusing on the "damage occurs simultaneously" bit when the rulebook seems to indicate that player life loss happens following character battles. It's a completely separate paragraph in the attack phase explanation, and also explained that way in the playthrough examples in the rules.

The fact is, the rules for this game are pretty well written compared to a lot of other games out there. But you will always have rules lawyers nit picking every little thing no matter what.
 
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sean johnson
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Before this the game that I played competitively was Warhammer: Invasion. After several years they did errata cards that persisted in being too powerful and being a disruptive force in the meta environment. However, the main way they dealt with cards that seemed to be unbalancing was a restricted list. By the end this list probably got a little too big, but in the beginning they took all of the cards that everyone used and put them on the restricted list. This meant that, you could not play with all of the good cards, but had to pick the one that best fit the overall strategy.

Once the OP events start if the SRs are indeed disruptive to the meta (if every build is to take advantage of the SRs or plan against them, then I would consider that disruptive to a healthy meta), then I think restricting them so that each team could only have one of the SRs might be a good fix. That way people have to choose between Tsarina and Gobby and Canucklehead and not just load up with all three of them.
 
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Martin Hristoforov
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I've played with both tsarina and gobby. The reason why most people lost was that they didn't spin down characters for tsarina and they didn't react to me buying a bunch of her. And they didn't get rid of my SKs right away (with globals) I designed a deck that dealth with both those problems - beasts to spin down for tsarina and get a lot of dice. And mr fantastic global to clear their SKs. Again, never lost a match to any of those decks.It hasn't really been even close most of the time.

And wolverine? please, 6 energy dude that u can keep sending back with distraction all day... Super Rare I think not, more like Super Suck
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Thomas Landy
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SeanXor wrote:
Before this the game that I played competitively was Warhammer: Invasion. After several years they did errata cards that persisted in being too powerful and being a disruptive force in the meta environment. However, the main way they dealt with cards that seemed to be unbalancing was a restricted list. By the end this list probably got a little too big, but in the beginning they took all of the cards that everyone used and put them on the restricted list. This meant that, you could not play with all of the good cards, but had to pick the one that best fit the overall strategy.

Once the OP events start if the SRs are indeed disruptive to the meta (if every build is to take advantage of the SRs or plan against them, then I would consider that disruptive to a healthy meta), then I think restricting them so that each team could only have one of the SRs might be a good fix. That way people have to choose between Tsarina and Gobby and Canucklehead and not just load up with all three of them.


I agree, the only thing that concerns me is that frequency of SR appearances shouldn't really be the only indicator of being unhealthy to the game. I mean, some players use them just because they like showing off their toys.

I was also thinking what if something like Beast Mutate 66 was the SR instead of one of the current ones? Would there still be complaints? After all, he is a great card, too. I'm not against addressing something if it's necessary, but it needs to be made sure it is before any drastic action is taken.
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Lochi Lochi
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Please, change the subject of this thread, there's no errata as there's no mistake in a card or anything like that. You're only proposing a variant.

The subject may confuse people.
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David Boeren
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Agreed, this needs to be moved to Variants.
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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mbialeck wrote:
H00D4M4N wrote:

The rules are actually fairly well written. Many of the questions that I've seen posted in the rules section on BGG are answered in the rules. Could some parts be a bit more clear? Maybe.


Really? Then can you answer these two questions for us. The amount of argument over these questions seems pretty indicative that the answers aren't nearly as clear-cut as you would make it seem.

Dear MIKE ELLIOT or ERIC LANG, Please help us understand the details on "Action Windows".

and

Timing Question - Iron Man (Philanthropist)


That's an unfair question. People on these boards are willing to argue rules they admit they don't like and don't agree with. But they continue to argue the so called letter of the law. The answer to both of those threads is pretty obvious, if you want to use logic and understand the rules of the game.

I also agree the rules are pretty clear, its people who don't understand the rules and want to argue who are causing confusion about rules and effects. There are some places the rules need to be tightened up. But overall these arguments should not really be happening. The overall rules of the game are well written. The small interactions on a single case by case basis are what need help. Also people who "feel this way" about rules are really not helping solve rules debates.
 
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David Newsom
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Change Tsarina to 4 cost and she's fixed.
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C. E. Freeman
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Shut It Donny wrote:
Change Tsarina to 4 cost and she's fixed.


If she needed fixing that would nerf her real good. Fortunately she is just fine the way she is.
 
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