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Subject: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart [ANSWERED by MW] rss

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Shane Larsen
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I'm aware of this thread: Mad Loyalists and change of heart. So I know that when a Loyalist who has gone "mad" takes Change of Heart, the agent dies and the game ends immediately.

Because of this, I assume that if a Loyalist player who has previously been assassinated--and forced to reveal his identity--takes Change of Heart, the result would be the same: the agent dies and the game ends immediately.

Am I correct?

[edit]

For clarification, the scenario in question is this:

1. A Loyalist player is assassinated, revealing his identity.
2. Later, that Loyalist player takes Change of Heart.

Does the game end immediately since the player is now an assassinated Restorationist?

Or, does the game continue, requiring that the [new] Restorationist player be assassinated again?
 
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Tom Chick
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heartg
thedacker wrote:
I'm aware of this thread: Mad Loyalists and change of heart. So I know that when a Loyalist who has gone "mad" takes Change of Heart, the agent dies and the game ends immediately.

Because of this, I assume that if a Loyalist player who has previously been assassinated--and forced to reveal his identity--takes Change of Heart, the result would be the same: the agent dies and the game ends immediately.

Am I correct?


I wouldn't think so, Shane. In the previous situation, the loyalist agent's player has three madness tokens in play. Once he becomes a restorationist, those tokens are still in play. A restorationist with three madness token has gone mad.

But in your example there is no lasting effect from the assassination attempt earlier in the game. When the loyalist becomes a restorationist, all is well.

-Tom
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S├ębastien A
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
I also agree with Tom's interpretation.

This is also supported by the thematic reason for the Loyalists' immortality: Mr. Wallace explained that they are not actually immortal, but are just faceless bureaucrats that seamlessly get replaced once something happens to them.

"Change of Heart" would therefore indicate that this new agent would start thinking for himself and break ranks with his former colleagues.
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Shane Larsen
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
TomChick wrote:
But in your example there is no lasting effect from the assassination attempt earlier in the game.

The lasting effect is that his identity is revealed for the rest of the game to show he has been assassinated.

TomChick wrote:
When the loyalist becomes a restorationist, all is well.

When the Loyalist becomes a Restorationist, he is now an assassinated Restorationist.

The other thread, IMO, supports my view because Wallace clarifies that the current status of the Loyalist agent ("Mad" in this case), carries over to the Restorationist once he's undergone a "change of heart". Wallace clarifies that the new restorationist agent doesn't have to take another mad counter. He's mad, he becomes a Restorationist, he's dead.

In my example, I'm doing the same. I'm carrying over the same status: He's assassinated, he becomes a Restorationist, he's dead.

I can see reason to see it both ways. But based on the way Wallace responded to the previous one, I'm leaning toward my interpretation. Unfortunately, there is no clarification in the rule book.

As always, I'm open to being wrong. And I would love to hear from Martin on this.
 
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Michael Mesich
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
Except that Loyalists can't be assassinated.

(Something I prefer to be a "membership has it's perks" thing instead of a bureaucratic replacement, but each their own!)

Loyalists can be revealed by going mad, but they simply cannot be assassinated.

However, if a Loyalist changes heart and becomes a Restorationist ... THEN he becomes capable of being assassinated.

Assassinated isn't really a status. Mad/Sane, yes. Alive/Dead, yes. Assassinated/Not Assassinated? No.

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Shane Larsen
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
mmesich wrote:
Alive/Dead, yes. Assassinated/Not Assassinated? No.

Well it goes without saying that if you're assassinated, you're dead.

I see the all the points being made here. And they're all good points that could be spot on.

I'm just waiting to hear an official word.
 
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Mike Oberly
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
mmesich wrote:
Except that Loyalists can't be assassinated.

(Something I prefer to be a "membership has it's perks" thing instead of a bureaucratic replacement, but each their own!)

Loyalists can be revealed by going mad, but they simply cannot be assassinated.

However, if a Loyalist changes heart and becomes a Restorationist ... THEN he becomes capable of being assassinated.

Assassinated isn't really a status. Mad/Sane, yes. Alive/Dead, yes. Assassinated/Not Assassinated? No.



I would go with this interpretation. Of course, it's always going to be each group's interpretation unless Martin Wallace makes a ruling.
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Tom Chick
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
thedacker wrote:
When the Loyalist becomes a Restorationist, he is now an assassinated Restorationist.


While you're welcome to play however you like, there is nothing the rules to suggest that a foiled assassination has any lasting effect. There is furthermore no indication of it on the table. You're inventing a condition ("an assassinated loyalist") that does not exist.

-Tom
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Tom Chick
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
mmesich wrote:
Assassinated isn't really a status. Mad/Sane, yes. Alive/Dead, yes. Assassinated/Not Assassinated? No.


Exactly. This is a non-issue. I don't know what it is about A Study in Emerald that causes people to cling to non-issues...

-Tom
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Martin Wallace
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
In the situation described here the 'new' Restorationist would not immediately die just because he was previously assassinated. The original loyalist who was assassinated would be a different person to the one who has had a change of heart. Obviously, if the 'new' Restorationist is assassinated again then the game ends.

Hope that helps.

Martin
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Shane Larsen
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Re: Assassinated Loyalist Takes Change of Heart
Thanks, Martin! I appreciate the response.

And I appreciate the fantastic game!
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