Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Timing of assigning damage rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So I was playing last night, and had a situation where I was attacking with Black Widow and a sidekick, with Iron Man defending. My opponent decided to block Black Widow, leaving the sidekick unblocked.

When damage resolution came, Iron Man KO'd Black Widow, took two damage from her, then used his special ability to assign three damage to the sidekick, KO'ing him as well.

The rules state that unblocked characters will damage the player, then go to the Used Area. So, in this case, would:

1) Sidekick does no damage to player (because he was KO,d), and goes to the Prep Area (i.e. Iron Man essentially blocks two characters)

2) Sidekick does one point of damage and goes to Used Area (Iron Man's ability basically has no effect);

3) Sidekick does one point of damage to player, then goes to Prep Area because Iron Man KO'd him (Iron Man's ability actually helps opponent by sending sidekick to Prep Area, giving player another die to roll next turn).

We played it that damage to characters is resolved before damage to players (number 1). Even unblocked characters have to survive all attacks/abilities, etc before they deal damage to the player. I know it says that damage is resolved simultaneously, but it doesn't make sense that a KO'd character could still deal damage to a player.

Which way is the correct one? Thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cristiano Cozzolino
Italy
Roma
RM
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From what I understood from the rules the Sidekick is declared as attacker and is unblocked so he will deal damage to player and go to the used pile.

In this situation Iron Man ability would be usefull when he's blocking a stronger character to finish him or to help other blocker to finish their opponent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Pretty sure it would be your second scenario. Dice go to the used pile based on whether or not they were blocked. Even if the sidekick took damage from the global, it still wasn't blocked.

As for making sense, think of it this way: the sidekick has a gun pointed at your opponent and Iron Man has a gun pointed at the sidekick. Iron man and the sidekick both pull their triggers at the exact same time. The sidekick attacked before it was ko'd.


*Edited for clarity
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jörg Müller
Germany
München
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I had similar questions and have been following several threads discussing this or similar cases.

From what I understand, the rules are not completely clear on this and leave a lot of room for interpretation. After some back and forth discussion, the threads usually come to the conclusion, that there's no definitive answer until an official FAQ is released (hopefully pretty soon, definitely before official tournaments happen).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From the strict interpretation of the rules, I can see that - it specifically says that damage is resolved simultaneously. It doesn't separate player from character. However, in the spirit of the genre, it makes more sense like this:

Sidekick points gun at player. Iron Man saves the day by making that one in a million shot that takes out the sidekick just in the nick of time, before the player is hurt.

The scene in the first movie where he targets all the terrorists that are threatening to kill the refugees is an example. Of course, we are not talking about reality in any form or fashion. The story is made up, the game is made up - so I guess it can happen any way the designers intended.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jose Huerta
United States
Plymouth
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
all damage is dealt simultaneously.

Scenario 3 is the correct one from my understanding.

A KO player can still do damage in the same way Nova, Hulk or Black widow can still do damage despite being blocked or otherwise impeded.

You go to the Prep area if you are KO'd... Not whether you are blocked are not...blocked damage is one of the pre cursors to being KO'd but not the only one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jose Huerta
United States
Plymouth
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Reducing your D to 0 is the prerequisite for being KO'd and thus being placed in the PREP.

Unblocked attackers still have +? D so that is why they go to the used pile after attacking unblocked.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After another re-read of that rules section, it sounds like you do the following in order:

Assign attackers
Assign blockers
Attacker uses global abilities and power dice
Defender uses global abilities
Assign damage from combat (to characters and players)
Attacking characters activate special abilities
Defending characters activate special abilities

You keep applying damage to characters and players until all opportunities for dealing damage have been exhausted. Then, the Attack Step is over.

KO's do not occur during the Attack Step, but in the Cleanup Step. Therefore, all damage has been resolved before the KO's happen, and the damage to the player cannot be avoided.

That pretty well spells it out. Thanks to all for your input.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
jhcuatro wrote:
Reducing your D to 0 is the prerequisite for being KO'd and thus being placed in the PREP.

Unblocked attackers still have +? D so that is why they go to the used pile after attacking unblocked.


Ok so as I read your response I looked back at what I typed and realized I really jumbled what I meant to say.

This is probably gonna come across as sounding rude/argumentative (I promise I don't mean it that way) but can you tell me what you're basing this on? Page 9 of the rulebook says "Place unblocked attacking characters in the player's used pile (even if the defending player managed to prevent or redirect all the damage done)".

I don't see anything anywhere about having to have D remaining to go to the used pile. From what I can see it's supposed to be based solely on whether or not you were blocked. I don't see why it would go to the prep area rather than the used pile regardless of damage received from abilities/globals if it still wasn't blocked.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Galietta III
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually if you read the rules and how they play it out, scenario 1 would apply. Read the damage step completely, then read the end of the extended combat example. Both will tell you to do unblocked damage to players LAST. Until further info from WizKids, follow the rulebook as it states it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have to respectfully disagree with you. The Damage Step rules do not specify an order in which damage is dealt to characters and players. The rule for assigning damage to players just happens to come after the rules for assigning damage to the characters.

The thing that swayed me is the fact that KO's are not resolved until the step after. My original thought was the same - damage characters first, resolve KO's, then damage players. But, the rules specifically state that all damage is simultaneous. Also, page 8 states "After all damage has been assigned, knock out each character that took damage greater than or equal to its defense"

I was mistaken in my previous post - KO's are not resolved in the Cleanup Step; however, the phrase "After all damage has been assigned ..." clearly indicates that damage to the player must be assigned as well before KO's are resolved. Therefore, the unblocked character still gets to damage the player before being KO'd (and also gets put in the Prep Area instead of the Used Area).

So, bottom line is, Iron Man should deal his three damage to Black Widow. Overkill I know; but at least the Sidekick die won't be rolled next turn. I don't agree with it; but, until the FAQ list comes out, that's what the rules say.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
edmundk
Malaysia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
dakkadakka1 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with you. The Damage Step rules do not specify an order in which damage is dealt to characters and players. The rule for assigning damage to players just happens to come after the rules for assigning damage to the characters.

The thing that swayed me is the fact that KO's are not resolved until the step after. My original thought was the same - damage characters first, resolve KO's, then damage players. But, the rules specifically state that all damage is simultaneous. Also, page 8 states "After all damage has been assigned, knock out each character that took damage greater than or equal to its defense"

I was mistaken in my previous post - KO's are not resolved in the Cleanup Step; however, the phrase "After all damage has been assigned ..." clearly indicates that damage to the player must be assigned as well before KO's are resolved. Therefore, the unblocked character still gets to damage the player before being KO'd (and also gets put in the Prep Area instead of the Used Area).

So, bottom line is, Iron Man should deal his three damage to Black Widow. Overkill I know; but at least the Sidekick die won't be rolled next turn. I don't agree with it; but, until the FAQ list comes out, that's what the rules say.


I see your point. But if that's the case wouldn't it make Hulk Green Goliath a really lousy blocker if he were swarmed? I mean he would effectively KO all or most of the lesser defense attacking dice and send them back to your opponents prep area and you would still end up taking all the damage...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't studied all of the cards in detail; but that may actually have been the intention. Some characters are better at defending, some better at attacking. Certainly KO'ing the Sidekick in my example would be a bad choice for Iron Man's ability. Maybe Hulk is better at wading into the fray than sitting back and defending.

It's a matter of choosing the best character for the particular task.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff W
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
dakkadakka1 wrote:
So I was playing last night, and had a situation where I was attacking with Black Widow and a sidekick, with Iron Man defending. My opponent decided to block Black Widow, leaving the sidekick unblocked.

When damage resolution came, Iron Man KO'd Black Widow, took two damage from her, then used his special ability to assign three damage to the sidekick, KO'ing him as well.

The rules state that unblocked characters will damage the player, then go to the Used Area. So, in this case, would:

1) Sidekick does no damage to player (because he was KO,d), and goes to the Prep Area (i.e. Iron Man essentially blocks two characters)

2) Sidekick does one point of damage and goes to Used Area (Iron Man's ability basically has no effect);

3) Sidekick does one point of damage to player, then goes to Prep Area because Iron Man KO'd him (Iron Man's ability actually helps opponent by sending sidekick to Prep Area, giving player another die to roll next turn).

We played it that damage to characters is resolved before damage to players (number 1). Even unblocked characters have to survive all attacks/abilities, etc before they deal damage to the player. I know it says that damage is resolved simultaneously, but it doesn't make sense that a KO'd character could still deal damage to a player.

Which way is the correct one? Thanks.


All damage is resolved simultaneously, so the Sidekick damages you, Black Widow and Iron Man damage each other all at the same time. Then the effects occur. Since the attacker doesn't have any effects to resolve, Iron Man's effects resolve. KOing the Sidekick. If you didn't want the SideKick to go to the Prep then just apply it to Black Widow.

That's how we play it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Hristoforov
United States
North Hollywood
CA
flag msg tools
as soon as a character deals unblocked damage to the player he goes to the used pile. all damage is done simultaneously and game-state effects take all precedence. a character having done unblocked damage moving to used pile is a game-state effect so it moving to the used pile happens instantaneously before any other effect can take place. iron mans ability is a triggered ability from taking damage. so you nullify some amount of damage but all other damage has already happened and the game state has put the pawn in the used pile already.

for instance being dead at 0lp is also game state and if u have an ability that says: if you take damage gain 1 life and you are at 1 and take 1 damage you will still die as there will be an instant where you are at 0lp and you immediately die.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Smat Denley
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
mb
edmundk80 wrote:
I see your point. But if that's the case wouldn't it make Hulk Green Goliath a really lousy blocker if he were swarmed? I mean he would effectively KO all or most of the lesser defense attacking dice and send them back to your opponents prep area and you would still end up taking all the damage...


If you only have Hulk blocking and they send a bunch of attackers, you should be at a disadvantage. Good thing is, Hulk won't be knocked out and your opponent shouldn't have many blockers (if any) because they attacked with a bunch of characters and Hulk's ability could take out some that didn't attack. Then, the next few turns, you can activate Hulk's ability again and your opponent will struggle to have any blockers fielded.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Worth
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Characters are not moved to the used pile until Clean Up.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's not quite right - all damage is calculated and resolved, then characters are moved to the appropriate piles. Therefore the unblocked KO'ed character foes to Prep - not Used.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.