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Subject: Rule "Omissions" rss

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Edwin David Bliss
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The rules for this game have a number of “omissions” with regard to certain elements of game play. These were observed during the course of playing several games. Seven new “rules” were created ( by my playing partner and myself ), to cover these “omissions“. Details of the seven new “rules” ( and thirteen other “notes” ) are presented below for you to add ( and use ) if you so wish.

a) 4. Game Time : iii. Winter ( 2nd Paragraph ) : Rule added : “Foresters may also relocate as Reeves.”
[ There is no good reason why Foresters should not also be allowed to relocate here. ]

b) 5. The Manor : i. Ownership of Manors : “Protocol” (b) : Rule added : “Exceptions :- 1) Pillagers 2) *.” ( Where * : “If troops retire to the Manor House ( or Castle ), they still own the Manor ( even if they are besieged or lost a combat prior to retiring ).” )
[ 1) Pillagers should never take control of a Manor ( it defeats the very logic of Pillaging ).
2) Ownership of the Manor House / Castle is generally mandatory in order to control a Manor. ]

c) 5. The Manor : iv. Supervision of Manors : Note added : “A Knight may not therefore leave the Manor and then return again ( during the Spring season ).” [ Clarification detail only. ]

d) 5. The Manor : viii. : (b) and (c) : Note added : “Any deduction for Weather or Pillaging to arable income ; will never result in an income of less than Nil for a Manor.” [ Clarification detail only. ]

e) 5. The Manor : viii. : (c) : Note added : “Do not add Forester income if a Smoke counter is on a Forest area due to Forest Fires.” [ Clarification detail only. ]

f) 5. The Manor : viii. : (d) : Note added : “( only if weather rules used. )” [ Clarification detail only. ]

[ To be continued on next thread A.S.A.P. due to website limitations !surprise ! Ummm, OK, sorted. On my next post but one ... cool ]
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Noel
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Why didn't you just make a second post on this thread instead of starting a completely new thread?
What website limitations are you referring to?
 
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Edwin David Bliss
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n815e wrote:
Why didn't you just make a second post on this thread instead of starting a completely new thread?
What website limitations are you referring to?


I did not consider that, sorry...

My long post got cut off. I have found the problem though. It's a < sign !! Will sort it all out shortly !
 
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Noel
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No need to be sorry, I just didn't understand.
 
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Edwin David Bliss
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Re: Rule "Omissions"
Part two below :

g) 12. Weather : Weather Table : Arable Line , <9 BAD Column : Note added : “ But never to less than Nil.” [ Clarification detail only. ]

h) 13. Manor Houses & Castles : Top of page 14 : Rule added : “iv. A Knight ( or Lord ) who retires to the Manor House / Castle to avoid combat during Spring, is still deemed to have supervised the Manor if at the end of Spring, he is again the sole occupant of the Manor. See 5i. (b) and 5 iv. also.” [ Related to the Rule addition at b) above. However, upon recent reflection, this one seems highly dubious, as I can’t recall the logic I used back then, now. Perhaps it should still be listed, but with the word “not” replacing the word ”still”, prior to the word “deemed” ! I’ll leave it up to you… ]

i) 14. Pillaging : Rule added : Opening statement changed from line 4 onwards : “This is Pillaging. However, if you Pillage, you cannot claim ownership and you must vacate the manor during the movement phase or season immediately following any Pillaging.”
[ The point of pillaging is to go in, wreak havoc and leave promptly ( preferably without combat ). ]

j) 14. Pillaging : i. : (e) : Note added : “Foresters may not be killed.”
[ Clarification detail only : It is presumed that Foresters can avoid / lose pillagers in the woods. ]

k) 14. Pillaging : ii. : Note added : “ See 5. viii note at (b) and (c).” ( As added at d) above. )
[ Clarification detail only. ]

l) 14. Pillaging : iii. : Note added : Sentence extended to read “,but for the first season only.”
[ Clarification detail only. ]

m) 14. Pillaging : iii. : Rule added : “During a siege ( only ) ; if the besiegers pillage ( during the first season ), they are not required to vacate the manor during the following phase or season.”
[ Pillaging here is a bonus to the siege, and you stay to continue the siege. ]

n) 19. Parishes : ii. ( 2nd Paragraph ) : Rule added : “The Pasture should be unoccupied by a Beehive unit or another Religious site.” [ Spatial limitation added. ]

o) 21. King Arthur’s Inspections : ii. (d) : Note added : “30 RP if both occupied by the same player.”
[ Clarification detail only. ]

p) 21. King Arthur’s Inspections : NB : ( 2nd Sentence ? ) : Sentence adjusted to read / Note added :
“The King arrives after campaigning for Autumn and stays until the End of Autumn.”
[ Clarification detail only - The King will always arrive during Autumn. See also below ! ]

q) 21. King Arthur’s Inspections : NB : Note added : “He is therefore present during Harvests & Income.” [ Clarification detail only. ]

r) 23. Fate Rolls : 6 : Note added : “A Manor with no Soldier always revolts.“
[ Clarification detail only. ]

s) 23. Fate Rolls : 12 : Rule added : “ Use an Esquire Knight and a Grade B Man-at-Arms.”
[ These are presumed to be unknown and untried troops, hence they have a lower social standing. ]

t) 23. Fate Rolls : Two general notes added : “NB : A Lord / Knight / Man-at-Arms = One Soldier.” and “NB : This Year = Year following Winter phase.” [ Clarification detail only. ]

Addendum :

u) 14. Pillaging : i. : Pillaging troops may : Note added : “Pillaging troops may do one ( or more ) of the five types of pillaging noted under (a) to (e). Each type may be done once per pillage only.” [ Clarification detail only. ]

Addendum 2 :

v) 13. Manor Houses & Castles : i. : (a) : Note added: If you are defeated or choose to withdraw after combat ( as in 6. vii ), you can choose a third option : (c) Retire to the Manor House.

w) 13. Manor Houses & Castles : ii : Note added: Castles are an upgrade to a Manor House ( rather than an additional feature ).










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Adam Marsden
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I really like the changes to pillaging as it is often abused during the game. The current rules are vague and have led to in game discussions and some bad feelings.

We have had problems with early bad weather leading to shortfalls in income. In the early game this can cripple a player before they have had a chance to get their economy moving. Desertion rules can compound this problem. I like the idea of ruling a manor can't give you a negative income.

I will put these houserules to our group before our next game and see if they are adopted. We have one player in particular who is close to giving up on this game. We have loved playing this in the past.

The other problem is that a game of Excalibur can last for many hours (we play 4 player games). We don't have the free time we used to when we were kids.
 
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Edwin David Bliss
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I am glad you like these "adjustments"; I hope your fellow players will too. Please let me know how your group receives them.

[ Most just seemed like common sense to me , but then not everyone applies the same logic to things... ]

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Edwin David Bliss
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It has come to my attention, that when I drew up my list of “Rule Book Omissions” ( as noted in two of the opening posts of this thread ), I did not include one that was referred to elsewhere on this forum. I have now updated my original list ( as I felt I should include it there also ); including it as an addendum item on the post showing the second part of the list. Apologies for the oversight and any confusion that it may have caused.
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Togu Oppusunggu
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Thanks for all your work. I remember thinking that the words "manor" and "manor centre" seem to be used inconsistently. They are two different things, if I'm not mistaken: manor referring to the whole estate with boundaries, and manor centre referring to the manor house.

It's been a while, so I don't quite remember what the exact points of confusion are. Have you spotted any yourself?

I think one example is that the end of autumn, "all knights must retire to the nearest manor". That means anywhere in the manor, right? It doesn't have to be the manor center, or does it?

Another example is when you are in your manor and defending it, but not at the manor house/centre. What happens when you have to retreat after combat? Can you retreat back to the manor center or do you have to leave the whole manor altogether (and if so, how far do you have to retreat)?
 
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Togu Oppusunggu
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I was reading another thread about movement, and I think I've finally cleared up the primary confusion I was having. For what it's worth, here's my complementary list of rules omissions and clarifications. Any discussion certainly welcomed.

1. Troops may be ordered to move to any milestone, not just manor centers.

2. Troops may end seasons at any milestone in a manor, not just the manor center.

3. At the end of the third movement/combat phase in autumn, all troops who are not in a friendly manor must retreat to the nearest friendly manor. (This is a free, non-plotted movement and, presumably, you can place the troops at any milestone in that nearest manor, similar to how it works in "winter relocation".)

4. To take over control of a manor, you always have to take or win control of the manor center.

5. When retreating from a battle, you retreat one milestone. Then, in subsequent phases, you may move two milestones to your original position or to a friendly manor. [This is as written in the rules.]

6. [Add] However, in subsequent phases, if the victorious troops are continuing in their movement (because of their original objective) into the defeated troops' milestone, then the defeated troops must move two milestones back towards their original position or towards a friendly manor.
(Usually the victorious troops will be headed for the manor centre to take control of the manor, so this rule effectively gives them the chance to translate battle victory into manor control - at least for the basic game; the optional rules give the defeated troops another option to retreat to the manor house at the manor center.)

7. In the optional rules, under 13c, you can retreat after an open battle of two rounds into the manor house at the manor centre. If you do so, the victorious troops can pillage and/or subsequently siege. In a siege, you wait until the third movement phase of the next season, at which point a battle takes place, and the defender no longer can get the +5 Attack value for the fortifications.

8. In the optional rules under 13b, if you are attacked in the open in your manor, you have the option to retreat immediately to the manor house. The attacker can follow you there and attack you directly, but the defender gets +5 to his Attack Value because of the fortifications. Or the attacker can disdain your cowardice and immediately pillage the manor; the attacker may then resume movement in the next movement phase.
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Edwin David Bliss
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toguopp wrote:
I think one example is that the end of autumn, "all knights must retire to the nearest manor". That means anywhere in the manor, right? It doesn't have to be the manor center, or does it?


I play "anywhere in the manor". Note : the above comment should refer to "all Troops" rather than "all Knights".
[ The rule here is unspecific, so I believe "anywhere in the manor" is reasonable / correct. ]



Quote:
Another example is when you are in your manor and defending it, but not at the manor house/centre. What happens when you have to retreat after combat? Can you retreat back to the manor center or do you have to leave the whole manor altogether (and if so, how far do you have to retreat)?


I believe you should be able to do either, but generally it makes more sense to retreat to the manor centre / house if in your own manor. Note that "a friendly manor" does not specifically discount your manor centre / house.
[ NB : The rules appear ( IMHO ) to be worded on the presumption you are fighting in another Lord's manor rather than your own ! Your question here states you are fighting in your own manor. Both of these things create possible differences in the options that should be available. See the next post but one !]

If you leave your manor, it should proberly be to the manor house in the next manor ( unlikely to stop retreating / "routing" before then ). That said however, the rules say nothing re this, so it's up to the players to agree what's done here specifically...
[ NB : Perhaps in order to be consistant with my previous comment, anywhere in the next manor will suffice... ]

Note you can only retreat to another friendly / owned manor. If none are "available" ( or accessable ) then you should really retreat to the manor centre / house if in your own manor as you cannot leave the manor !
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Edwin David Bliss
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toguopp wrote:
5. When retreating from a battle, you retreat one milestone. Then, in subsequent phases, you may move two milestones to your original position or to a friendly manor. [This is as written in the rules.]

IMHO the "may" here does not mean that movement is optional; only that you have two choices re it's direction. This makes Retreat movement compulsory. Note the above should read two milestones per phase etc.. Also it's retreat towards a friendly manor.
[ Your comment above equates to : a) 2 milestones only and b) to the manor only ; perhaps adding to any confusion re the "may" ??]

Quote:
6. [Add] However, in subsequent phases, if the victorious troops are continuing in their movement (because of their original objective) into the defeated troops' milestone, then the defeated troops must move two milestones back towards their original position or towards a friendly manor.
(Usually the victorious troops will be headed for the manor centre to take control of the manor, so this rule effectively gives them the chance to translate battle victory into manor control - at least for the basic game; the optional rules give the defeated troops another option to retreat to the manor house at the manor center.)

Not required. See response to 5. above. This all happens now ( IMHO ) per the rules.


Quote:
7. In the optional rules, under 13c, you can retreat after an open battle of two rounds into the manor house at the manor centre. If you do so, the victorious troops can pillage and/or subsequently siege. In a siege, you wait until the third movement phase of the next season, at which point a battle takes place, and the defender no longer can get the +5 Attack value for the fortifications.

Applies to Manor houses only - Castles are +10 ( rather than +5 ) if you retreat to them (and are worth +5 for a combat in the open !?! ).



Otherwise - OK !!


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Edwin David Bliss
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This all prevoked a little thought.

Generally during this "historical" period :

a) Troops losing a battle in another's manor would retreat to ( or towards ) a friendly manor or their forward base ( start position ) after a failed attack. NB : The former is more likely.

[ As per the rules - 6. vii. Roughly ]

b) Troops losing a battle whilst defending their own manor, would retreat to the starting point of the attack, the manor centre ( manor house / castle ), or ( more rarely ) to ( or towards ) another friendly manor.

[ Again roughly as per the rules - 6. vii and with a slight presumption 13. i. ]

6. vii operates exclusive of the Optional rules.

13. i. does not specify what happens in the event that you choose to defend your manor in the open ( option (a) ) and then have to retreat !! It has to be said that options (b) and (c) were more likely to be chosen by manor defenders...

I believe that if option (a) is chosen and you retreat, then you have a third option at 6. vii :

(c) Retreat to the Manor House / Castle.

Note that the comment at 13. i. (a) "The invader cannot pillage or pass through" could be deemed to not apply if the defender loses the battle ( combat ) / withdraws. However, IMHO it is best not to disapply this ( but that's up to you and your fellow players )...
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Edwin David Bliss
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Please note I have added details re the above ( 6. vii. (c) ) to my original post herein as an addendum ( addendum 2 ).

Also a comment re Castles has been added too.
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Adam Marsden
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I tried another game with the same group using these clarifications, we also tried to limit deployment time and order writing time to speed the game up. The game still lasted too long at 5+ hours but we didn't have much in the way of rule wrangling. The only minor disagreements came over poorly written orders (orders said to go to chokepoint when there were 2 equidistant chokepoints) and by me disputing what phase combat we were in (probably my fault due to tiredness and slight inebriation).

Everyone enjoyed the game. Fate and weather were less of a factor thankfully due to kinder rolls, and the no -ve income for a manor rule helped. I felt like my economy never got going and seemed to be playing catch-up all game without a real chance of winning. I enjoyed it less prehaps than the others, though I got to have a great to and fro war with my neighbor, really we were fighting over 3rd place which was a shame.

All in all I am pleased that we had a good game and I think these clarifications do fix a few problems. I think next time we get together I will see if they are up for trying something new(er). As good a game as this is it is showing its age. This game takes too long to play to conclusion, and after a few turn in you feel like you are doing a tax return to work out your income/spending.
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