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Subject: Combat Odds rss

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Marco Gromball
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Hi BGG'lers!
I have a question about the Combat Odds in France 40.
In the Rulebook example on page 7,Point 8.3, they say:

A 11 strength vs. 12 is a ratio of 1:2?
How can that be possible?
Can someone explain the math behind that?

And how do i figure out the odds in general? I am a wargame beginner, so explain it as easy as possible.

Thank you so much for your help
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Reinhard Mueller
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Snake177 wrote:
Hi BGG'lers!
I have a question about the Combat Odds in France 40.
In the Rulebook example on page 7,Point 8.3, they say:

A 11 strength vs. 12 is a ratio of 1:2?
How can that be possible?
Can someone explain the math behind that?

If the defender has 12, you need at least also 12 points as attacker for a 1:1 ratio. So as you do not achieve a 1:1 ratio with 11 points, you shift one column left on the CRT (which happens to be 1:2).
If the defender has 12 point, then you get these ratios for example:
4:12 => 1:3 (I am not sure whether 1:3 is on the CRT)
5:12 => 1:3
6:12 => 1:2 >> next column reached
7:12 => 1:2
8:12 => 1:2
...
11:12 => 1:2
12:12 => 1:1 >> next column reached
13:12 => 1:1
14:12 => 1:1
...
23:12 => 1:1
24:12 => 2:1 >> next column reached
25:12 => 2:1
...
35:12 => 2:1
36:12 => 3:1 >> next column reached
37:12 => 3:1
...
and so on.


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Bill Lawson
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You always round down for crt odds ratio in this game.
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Marco Gromball
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Thanks a lot. That really helps me much.
Now I can see the sense behind that system. For me was just strange to see, that an almost equal number has a ratio like it was double the size.
So that means, 11:12 is 1:2. But that means, that 11:32 is still 1:2?
In a real Battle, it should make a big difference if one army has three times more strength.
 
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Bill Lawson
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Snake177 wrote:
Thanks a lot. That really helps me much.
Now I can see the sense behind that system. For me was just strange to see, that an almost equal number has a ratio like it was double the size.
So that means, 11:12 is 1:2. But that means, that 11:32 is still 1:2?
In a real Battle, it should make a big difference if one army has three times more strength.


You round down so 16/32 = 1/2, 31/32 =1/2. 15/32=1/3
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Reinhard Mueller
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Snake177 wrote:
Thanks a lot. That really helps me much.
Now I can see the sense behind that system. For me was just strange to see, that an almost equal number has a ratio like it was double the size.
So that means, 11:12 is 1:2. But that means, that 11:32 is still 1:2?

11:32 is 1:3 as you need 16 points as attacker to reach 1:2. It is always rounded in favour of the defender.
Always look at the right value (defender) and multiply or divide it to see which value (as attacker) you need to reach a certain multiple.
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Marco Gromball
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Thank you so much! I think i got it now. Great explanations.
 
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Reinhard Mueller
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Snake177 wrote:
Thank you so much! I think i got it now. Great explanations. :D

There are also tables like this, but I suggest to do calculate it mentally. It get's second nature fast:

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Marco Gromball
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Great table! Super, that's awesome.
 
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For some reason most wargame rules do not explain low odds properly. Magazine: Command games tend to explain it clearly.

If the attacker's strength is equal to or greater than the defender's, then you put the ratio, attacker divided by defender, rounded down, on the left side of the colon, and a "1" on the right side. Example: 15 attacker vs 6 defender is 15/6 = 2.5:1 = 2:1

If the attacker's strength is less than the defender's, then you put a "1" on the left side of the colon, and put the ratio, defender divided by attacker, rounded up, on the right side of the colon. Example: 6 attacker vs 15 defender = 1:2.5 = 1:3
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Charles CORDIER
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Somewhere (SCS maybe) it is said you must divide both values by the lower one. You either get xxx:1 or 1:xxx, then read the CRT.


As for the OP question there is no way to avoid the rounding splitting of continuous ratio between the low one and the next one. Some games round to nearest value which makes 18:12 way better than 17:12.

My home rule is : get a decimal ratio with one figure after the dot, roll a D10 under this figure to grant use of the next ratio.

17/12 ~= 1.4 so roll of 1-4 grants you 2:1 and roll of 5-0 grants you 1:1

This can be quickly done when figuring the ratio if both players cooperate.
 
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noelberrier wrote:
Somewhere (SCS maybe) it is said you must divide both values by the lower one. You either get xxx:1 or 1:xxx, then read the CRT.


Not SCS. Gamers/Essig games weirdly do not round in favor of the defender, unlike virtually every other wargame. In SCS a 6:9 is a 1:1 attack.

Rounding affects the procedure. The one I gave is for the standard rounding in favor of the defender.
 
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Charles CORDIER
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You're right about the rounding part. I was only talking of the ratio determination part which I find clearly explained:

Quote:
To determine the raw combat odds,
compare the total modifi ed attacking
strength with the total modifi ed defend-
ing strength. Divide both numbers by
the smaller number of the two.
Apply
the rounding rule to the results of the
divisions and express the two numbers
as a ratio Attacker to Defender.


 
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I meant to say any odds greater than a 6:9 is a 1:1. A natural 1:2 is the cutoff in Gamers games.

In any case I find dividing a number by itself to be awkward wording for "put a 1 there" so I find the XTR explanation superior, especially since it incorporates the rounding rule directly in the procedure. The XTR procedure is in fact the procedure used in France 40, just better worded.
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