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Subject: Why not use a credit tracker? rss

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Hans Otto
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I watched so many uTube videos of people playing A:NR, and all of them used credit tokens or a few dice. I really love this game, but with all that token management I got a bit annoyed of the time. Dice seem to be better, though I hate searching the right number on the die (Yes, there are dice with the numbers adjacent distributed on it). Another problem I don't like with dice is imho, that it can be hard for opponent to see how much credits you have.

The best alternative I think is a credit tracker, like it's used in other games, like Mage Wars for example:



It's pretty easy to create. Just need a pen and paper. Though I highly recommend using some thicker cardboard, that feels better and is more comfortable to play with. What also could be a small trick, to order the numbers whiled, like a snail shell. Then you don't have to move the tracker token from one end to the other.



You could also make a cyberpunk/computer-ish one for the extra flavor
 
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Nushura
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If it ain't broke...

What is wrong with using tokens?
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Gregory Pettigrew
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gulden wrote:
I watched so many uTube videos of people playing A:NR, and all of them used credit tokens or a few dice. I really love this game, but with all that token management I got a bit annoyed of the time. Dice seem to be better, though I hate searching the right number on the die (Yes, there are dice with the numbers adjacent distributed on it). Another problem I don't like with dice is imho, that it can be hard for opponent to see how much credits you have.

The best alternative I think is a credit tracker, like it's used in other games, like Mage Wars for example


Three reasons
1) Space
2) Error Correction
3) Advancement Tokens

I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the use of dice in this game. They are usually a pain for your opponent to deal with.
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Andrew Keddie
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etherial wrote:
I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the use of dice in this game. They are usually a pain for your opponent to deal with.


Sing it. Every time someone sits across the table from me with dice, I die a little inside. Then I sigh and resign myself to constantly checking their credit tracking throughout the game.

RE: the OP.

It's a perfectly serviceable idea, and probably better than dice. Problems still exist though. Like, how high do you make the tracker go? Most games I rarely get much above 25 creds, but in one particularly memorable game I hit over 60.

Plus, having actual credit chits gives a nice tactility to the game. Use whatever kind of tokens you like, but something designated as a credit token, and having lots of them that you move around is nice - it's more like handling actual money. Helps keep me immersed.
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Captain Frisk
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Have you played mage wars? Knocking those damn cubes around is a disaster.
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Grish Noren
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@Op, I've been considering turning my extra ID's into abacus trackers. Two strings for 10's and 1's should be enough.

Here's a page where someone else has gone to the trouble:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1166192/my-solution-to-spare...

CommissarFeesh wrote:
etherial wrote:
I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the use of dice in this game. They are usually a pain for your opponent to deal with.


Sing it. Every time someone sits across the table from me with dice, I die a little inside. Then I sigh and resign myself to constantly checking their credit tracking throughout the game.


Your squeals of pain are music to my jinteki ears.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Not that it's actually painful. Dice FTW!
 
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Troy Jennings
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A lot of mats made for the original Netrunner used this concept. There's nothing wrong with doing so, but remember that your opponent needs to clearly see what value you're on.
 
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David O
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
etherial wrote:
I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the use of dice in this game. They are usually a pain for your opponent to deal with.


Sing it. Every time someone sits across the table from me with dice, I die a little inside. Then I sigh and resign myself to constantly checking their credit tracking throughout the game.


I've yet to see a better alternative. I used the tokens for the first 1 or 2 games I ever played, then realized it was such a pain in the rear to keep them organized in a way that was easy for both myself and my opponent to track. IMO, its much easier to read the number on a die than try to figure out how many total tokens are in a pile/stack.
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Brian H
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It's only a problem trying to count tokens if they are shoved into a random pile. If you keep them organized properly there should be no question.
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Clyde W
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hwangman wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
etherial wrote:
I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the use of dice in this game. They are usually a pain for your opponent to deal with.


Sing it. Every time someone sits across the table from me with dice, I die a little inside. Then I sigh and resign myself to constantly checking their credit tracking throughout the game.


I've yet to see a better alternative. I used the tokens for the first 1 or 2 games I ever played, then realized it was such a pain in the rear to keep them organized in a way that was easy for both myself and my opponent to track. IMO, its much easier to read the number on a die than try to figure out how many total tokens are in a pile/stack.
Been playing with the original tokens since Core 2012 and have yet to ever be confused by them. If I am ever confused about how many credits someone has, I simply ask if I can't tell. If it's a real problem, I ask them to make change, or organize in stacks of 5.
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Patrick K
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hwangman wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
etherial wrote:
I cannot stress enough how much I dislike the use of dice in this game. They are usually a pain for your opponent to deal with.


Sing it. Every time someone sits across the table from me with dice, I die a little inside. Then I sigh and resign myself to constantly checking their credit tracking throughout the game.


I've yet to see a better alternative. I used the tokens for the first 1 or 2 games I ever played, then realized it was such a pain in the rear to keep them organized in a way that was easy for both myself and my opponent to track. IMO, its much easier to read the number on a die than try to figure out how many total tokens are in a pile/stack.


Coming from other card games I never had a problem with dice. Until Kati Jones came along. Players would use Kati and used they dice for how many click they used on her instead of how many credits on her. The card says put 3 credits on her, not one advancement/power token.
 
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Brian H
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Yeah, keep in mind also that each player's credit count should be easily obtained by the opponent. If you are using some hard-to-read methods or vague piles of credits, that is going against the spirit of the game. I shouldn't have to ask you every turn how many credits you have.
 
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Grish Noren
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pCAB wrote:
Coming from other card games I never had a problem with dice. Until Kati Jones came along. Players would use Kati and used they dice for how many click they used on her instead of how many credits on her. The card says put 3 credits on her, not one advancement/power token.


This is why if you're planning to use dice you just bring a bunch of six siders with you. Put the die on katie showing 3, then flip it to 6, then go get another. This is not a problem with dice, but a problem with the people playing with dice.

When using shortcuts, you clear them with your opponent first so that everyone is on the same page, and they you remain consistent.

Eve Campaign is the one that hurts the most with dice, you need 3 of your six siders to represent that and at least one other to show the 2 you've taken.
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Sonny A.
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gumOnShoe wrote:

This is why if you're planning to use dice you just bring a bunch of six siders with you. Put the die on katie showing 3, then flip it to 6, then go get another. This is not a problem with dice, but a problem with the people playing with dice.

When using shortcuts, you clear them with your opponent first so that everyone is on the same page, and they you remain consistent.


With Kati it only makes sense to use "power counters" and just take 3 credits per counter on her. Using actual credits makes it slightly more tedious and more difficult to see how much is on her. Dice or not.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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SonnyDK wrote:
With Kati it only makes sense to use "power counters" and just take 3 credits per counter on her. Using actual credits makes it slightly more tedious and more difficult to see how much is on her. Dice or not.


It would if that's how the card was worded.
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Jon Bowker
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SonnyDK wrote:

With Kati it only makes sense to use "power counters" and just take 3 credits per counter on her. Using actual credits makes it slightly more tedious and more difficult to see how much is on her. Dice or not.

My "power counters" are the exact thickness of three 1-credit tokens stacked on top of each other. I've never had a problem or been asked how much money she's making me.
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Grish Noren
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SonnyDK wrote:
Quote:
When using shortcuts, you clear them with your opponent first so that everyone is on the same page, and they you remain consistent.


With Kati it only makes sense to use "power counters" and just take 3 credits per counter on her. Using actual credits makes it slightly more tedious and more difficult to see how much is on her. Dice or not.


OCD players aside...

This is fine as long as your opponent agrees to count the same way as you.

Personally, I find it to not be very tedious at all with dice to show the amount of credits rather than uses. Again, 6 siders are pretty good at this. It's quick to make a change one way or the other and picking up and putting down dice on the same side is trivial.

I find piles of credits distasteful. I don't really care how organized you are, it often reads poorly. I can't really tell the difference between a pile of 3 and a pile of 4 or a pile of 4 and a pile of 5. The way my opponents make change with them is also opaque most of the time. One of the people I play with regularly doesn't do it right all of the time, often to his benefit. So, I really don't understand the argument for the core set tokens. They've always been less readable to me, encouraging sloppy play.

That said, I'm fine with anyone using them. Hopefully anyone using them can be fine with me using dice. If I can tolerate another player's sloppy and disorganized methods that grate upon my soul, they can tolerate mine.
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Ty Volpo
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I use two 10 siders (a 10s and a 0-9) for credits because I'm GRNDL and need the 99 credit ceiling. Everything else I use 6 siders, except Kati and Datasucker. They get spindowns.

I play dice, but I also am aware of the fact that a lot of people are perturbed by dice. I always let them know ahead of time and offer to use pen/paper for cred tracking if they prefer. Thus far, everyone has been pretty cool with dice.

Acknowledging the discomfort a lot of players have with you using dice can go a long way toward assuaging it. Playing with dice requires a higher level of "awareness" and care with the board state and says that you're holding yourself to somewhat of a "higher standard of play", or at least more mindful (at least I do). Just make sure you live up to that promise.
 
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Noway Jose
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AN Tracker

^
I know this isn't a universal fix, but i always have my iphone with me and I just turn my iPhone into "airplane mode" so i don't get disturbed and set it to the side. This thing is a one stop shop for everything accept advancement tokens and essentially anything you HAVE to place on a card (crypsis etc)

I just use the small D6 they are small enough they fit in my deck box even, i find 4-6 is the perfect amount. I've never had any issues with the legibility of reading dice.. maybe people are playing on big tables far away from each other? Or maybe bad eyes?


Their may actually be something available on android devices/windows phone as well but I am not sure.

I can tell you though, i've had people just as impressed with AN tracker (props to the designer) as the game itself and it's just a compounding factor for people to get into it! Makes tracking a dream!

Cheers!
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David O
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TheBriarfox wrote:
I use two 10 siders (a 10s and a 0-9) for credits because I'm GRNDL and need the 99 credit ceiling. Everything else I use 6 siders, except Kati and Datasucker. They get spindowns.

I play dice, but I also am aware of the fact that a lot of people are perturbed by dice. I always let them know ahead of time and offer to use pen/paper for cred tracking if they prefer. Thus far, everyone has been pretty cool with dice.

Acknowledging the discomfort a lot of players have with you using dice can go a long way toward assuaging it. Playing with dice requires a higher level of "awareness" and care with the board state and says that you're holding yourself to somewhat of a "higher standard of play", or at least more mindful (at least I do). Just make sure you live up to that promise.


Sounds like a good approach. IMO, die are the easiest to read overall, but I like the idea of offering to track totals with pen/paper if the opponent has some problem with it.

Currently, I have a few different colored sets of die, so I'll use one color for money and another color for power/virus counters. No issues thus far.
 
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Jacob Morris
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TheBriarfox wrote:
I play dice, but I also am aware of the fact that a lot of people are perturbed by dice. I always let them know ahead of time and offer to use pen/paper for cred tracking if they prefer. Thus far, everyone has been pretty cool with dice.


Umm. That's probably because who in the hell would want to play against an opponent using pen and paper for tracking the game state in Netrunner. "Hey I use Bad System, is that cool? If you don't like Bad System, I could use Really Bad System instead? No? You sure?" That is really a bad comparison. It would make way more sense and actually make me feel more comfortable with you using dice if you offered to use tokens instead of dice, not pen and paper.

TheBriarfox wrote:
Acknowledging the discomfort a lot of players have with you using dice can go a long way toward assuaging it. Playing with dice requires a higher level of "awareness" and care with the board state and says that you're holding yourself to somewhat of a "higher standard of play", or at least more mindful (at least I do). Just make sure you live up to that promise.


I don't generally think of people using dice holding themselves to a higher standard of play. When someone sits down across from me and pulls out dice, I expect them to be more careless because they care about some perceived amount of convenience more than the game. Seeing my opponent use dice doesn't say "hey, I hold myself to a higher standard so you should too", it says "hey, can you make sure I keep track of all this, I'm not gonna bother". It's like playing against someone who doesn't track clicks in any way except for maybe saying them out loud, which usually just means "hey I'm pretty sure I'm awesome at this game, I swear I won't lose track of my clicks, promise." I've started a habit of tracking opponents' clicks at tournaments in case I play anyone like that. I inevitably catch a +/-1 click turn against almost every such opponent, just like most dicers I play against mismanage them.
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Zeb
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Those good-for-nothing dicers! Stealing our jobs and women I tell you!
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Brodie
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What's the opposite of "dicer?" "Tokener?"
 
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Jacob Morris
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Agent Archer wrote:
What's the opposite of "dicer?" "Tokener?"


Tokenist?
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jakodrako wrote:
Umm. That's probably because who in the hell would want to play against an opponent using pen and paper for tracking the game state in Netrunner. "Hey I use Bad System, is that cool? If you don't like Bad System, I could use Really Bad System instead? No? You sure?" That is really a bad comparison. It would make way more sense and actually make me feel more comfortable with you using dice if you offered to use tokens instead of dice, not pen and paper.


Paper is the MOST BEST way of tracking credits though. THE MATH IS ALL RIGHT THERE! NO CHEATING!

Sarcasm is only slightly sarcasm. I kept track of life totals in magic on paper for the longest time. While I prefer dice to paper at this point, there are clear advantages to using paper instead to track a game. If it were between tokens for money and paper, I'd choose paper every day of the week.

Quote:
I don't generally think of people using dice holding themselves to a higher standard of play. When someone sits down across from me and pulls out dice, I expect them to be more careless because they care about some perceived amount of convenience more than the game. Seeing my opponent use dice doesn't say "hey, I hold myself to a higher standard so you should too", it says "hey, can you make sure I keep track of all this, I'm not gonna bother". It's like playing against someone who doesn't track clicks in any way except for maybe saying them out loud, which usually just means "hey I'm pretty sure I'm awesome at this game, I swear I won't lose track of my clicks, promise." I've started a habit of tracking opponents' clicks at tournaments in case I play anyone like that. I inevitably catch a +/-1 click turn against almost every such opponent, just like most dicers I play against mismanage them.


Good on you for tracking your opponent's game state. But you still sound like a totally condescending jerk in that paragraph. :/
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