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Subject: The BBC decides to ban a certain 4-letter word rss

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Chris R.
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I hate to even show the dreaded word.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
girl


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/28/girl-sexist-addre...

"I really dislike the word (expletive deleted)! I think it's appropriate to use it ... up until, say, the age of 11 or 12, but not after that."

["Hey, look at the 13-year-old non-(expletive deleted) who is looking very non-(expletive deleted)-like today."]

Browsing the BBC, here's one recent headline: "A 13-year-old Indian tribal school(expletive deleted) who has become the youngest (expletive deleted) to climb Mount Everest has told the BBC in her first interview that she wants to be a role model for tribal children." (They don't seem to be following their own rules.)

The BBC seems to use the phrase "17-year-old (expletive deleted)", but the phrase "19-year-old (expletive deleted)" is too toxic even in a quote.

Oh, well.

...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/27/is-the-...

"Whether you find the word (expletive deleted) offensive or not depends, as ever, on context. Is it being said by a man or a woman? What is the age of the female being called a (expletive deleted)? And what is the intention behind the use -– is it belittling, affectionate, or purely descriptive? ... (Expletive deleted) is also, surprisingly, a term that women seem to use more to describe themselves, and their friends, the older they get -– perhaps irony and affection for the word increase with age."

(Life is very complicated.)

...

In Fifty Years We'll All Be Chicks*: ... And Other Complaints from an Angry Middle-Aged White Guy Paperback -- book title by Adam Carolla

* Is this word allowed even in as comedy?

It might be difficult to diagnose certain problems in society when the descriptive words become outlawed.

...

I hope I did not offend anyone too much. I just found this story amusing.
 
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As always, Chris, you have it entirely wrong. The article is about changing a report on a 19 y.o. female athlete.

If 18 is the age of majority, as it is in the UK, then a 19 year old female is a woman while a 17 year old is still a girl. Nothing sinister about that, they are just being accurate.

But have a shock censorship wankfest if you like.
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It wasn't about age. It was about whether or not the word was used in a sexist manner for a documentary on the Commonwealth Games.

Quote:
During the programme, presenter Mark Beaumont, 31, was flung to the ground by a young judo champion, and joked: ‘I am not sure I can live that down – being beaten by a 19-year-old-girl.’ His remarks were aired in full when the documentary, called The Queen’s Baton Relay, was first broadcast on the BBC News Channel in April. But fearing viewers might take offence, the corporation decided to edit out the word ‘girl’ when it was repeated last week.


Critics, however, attacked the move. Tory MP Philip Davies, who sits on the Commons culture, media and sport committee, said: ‘They are finding offence where none is taken or intended. ‘We are going to end up in a situation where nobody is going to dare say anything lest some politically correct zealot deems it offensive.’ Mr Beaumont, a record-breaking cyclist and adventurer, also questioned why the cut was necessary, writing on Twitter: ‘Maybe the editor thought it was sexist – it wasn’t. I’m not worried about it.’

Even the teenage judo champion in question, Cynthia Rahming from the Bahamas, was baffled. ‘I wasn’t offended – I didn’t find it sexist,’ she told The Mail on Sunday.


--The [Daily] Mail Online 5/26/14

So the question is: if you say someone "fights (or throws etc.) like a girl" are you being sexist? The BBC now says yes.
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Read the block of text you just quoted again.
 
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Forget the age angle. No one cares if she's 17 or 19. If he had said, "I can't believe I was beaten by a 19 year old woman," they would have edited that as well. Consider these quotes from the OP linked Guardian article...

Quote:
...The fact that it is used as a threat to boys to encourage certain masculinised behaviour – "You can't have a dolly, they're for girls" – shows them that boys are not only different but better...

...When people are criticised for "throwing like a girl", "crying like a girl" or "being a big girl's blouse", it implies that there is nothing as rubbish or weak as a girl, or quite as surprising as them being a champion. Beaumont was making a joke about being beaten in a combat sport by not just a female, but a young female...

..."Girl" isn't sexist every single time it's used, but when it is used day-in, day-out to signify that the female of the species is somehow lacking, and that the worst thing that could happen to a man or boy – to any of us in fact – is to be like a girl, then it does have an effect...


That's why the BBC got spooked.
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sikeospi wrote:

Article wrote:
"I really dislike the word girl! I think it’s appropriate to use it to refer to females up until, say, the age of 11 or 12, but not after that.

"I find it offensive when people refer to young women or adult females as “girls” because it diminishes who and what we are, and makes us seem young and unimportant," she said.

Epstein also highlighted the different ways men and women are addressed:

"I would never refer to colleagues as “boys”, nor would I call grown men “boys”, and yet people, especially men, continually do this to me and to other women."



Many attacks on the word "girl" to refer to grown women are misguided, in my opinion, because it supposes the alternate is "boy". However "girl" has become the feminine version of "guy", ever since "gal" fell out of use.

Man : Woman
Boy : Girl
Guy : Girl

So anytime I see the word "girl" used to refer to a grown woman, I mentally substitute "guy" and see if it fits. If it does, I don't feel that it's a sexist usage.

(Maybe using "girl" instead of "guy" isn't ideal. Maybe "gal" should come back, so we can avoid this ambiguity. But it's how I see people of both sexes use "girl" day-to-day, for what it's worth.)

Having said all that, the use of "girl" in the BBC programme does look like it is meant like "boy". But is that sexist? If we substitute with "boy":

"I am not sure I can live that down - being beaten by a 19-year-old boy.”

I think use of "boy" in this context fits, because a 19 year old is pretty young. I don't know how old Mark Beaumont is, but at a certain age you're going to look at 19 year olds closer to kids than adults. I mean, depending on the age of the speaker, this quote would not be unusual:

"I am not sure I can live that down - being beaten by a 19-year-old kid.”
 
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So would you have banned the word?
 
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Gialmere wrote:

So would you have banned the word?

Just so you know: the BBC has not banned the word 'girl', regardless of what Chris or the Daily Mail might say.
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Chad Ellis
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That's just a special case of the more general rule that X has not done Y, regardless of what Chris says, which in turn is just a branch of the RSP law, Chris says X; therefore ~X.
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Chris R.
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Quote:
That's just a special case of the more general rule that X has not done Y, regardless of what Chris says, which in turn is just a branch of the RSP law, Chris says X; therefore ~X.


Some people never understand comedy.

...

If the BBC style book says that a female of age 18 or older should not be called a (expletive deleted), that actually makes some sense.

If Leftists, as stated above, are going to say that a female over the age of 12 should not be called a (expletive deleted), that actually seems rather silly -- especially if the female looks quite young. Does the BBC really need to know the age of everyone?

Hey, look at the (ladies) in the (lady)scout troop selling the (lady)scout cookies.
Wednesday Addams: Are they made from real (Lady) Scouts?


If BBC feels that they need to edit out the word (expletive deleted) whenever it is spoken in an actual quote to a person over 18, that also seems quite silly. As stated above, what happens if the word (expletive deleted) is used in a quote by an elderly woman as a friendly compliment? What if Oprah used the word (expletive deleted)friend? Is this just another very dangerous word that can only be used by certain favored groups and individuals during certain circumstances? We always need another one of those.
 
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Wow, he really does think they've banned it. That's awesome.
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Chris R.
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Of course, according to the UN violence against women representative, apparently among all the horrible, torture-inducing countries in the world, Britain is the most sexist -- so perhaps they are just being really sensitive or overly (expletive deleted)ly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boys-club-bri...

"sexualisation of women and girls in the media ..., misogynistic advertising, harassment on tubes and in public spaces, the bullying of girls in school, the 'disproportionate' effect of austerity measures on women, and the inability of the criminal justice system to respond to women and girl survivors of violence."

Harassment on tubes? Toothpaste tubes? Inner tubes? Eustachian tubes? I guess some people are just crazy for tubes...
 
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booned wrote:
sikeospi wrote:

Article wrote:
"I really dislike the word girl! I think it’s appropriate to use it to refer to females up until, say, the age of 11 or 12, but not after that.

"I find it offensive when people refer to young women or adult females as “girls” because it diminishes who and what we are, and makes us seem young and unimportant," she said.

Epstein also highlighted the different ways men and women are addressed:

"I would never refer to colleagues as “boys”, nor would I call grown men “boys”, and yet people, especially men, continually do this to me and to other women."



Many attacks on the word "girl" to refer to grown women are misguided, in my opinion, because it supposes the alternate is "boy". However "girl" has become the feminine version of "guy", ever since "gal" fell out of use.

Man : Woman
Boy : Girl
Guy : Girl

So anytime I see the word "girl" used to refer to a grown woman, I mentally substitute "guy" and see if it fits. If it does, I don't feel that it's a sexist usage.

(Maybe using "girl" instead of "guy" isn't ideal. Maybe "gal" should come back, so we can avoid this ambiguity. But it's how I see people of both sexes use "girl" day-to-day, for what it's worth.)

Having said all that, the use of "girl" in the BBC programme does look like it is meant like "boy". But is that sexist? If we substitute with "boy":

"I am not sure I can live that down - being beaten by a 19-year-old boy.”

I think use of "boy" in this context fits, because a 19 year old is pretty young. I don't know how old Mark Beaumont is, but at a certain age you're going to look at 19 year olds closer to kids than adults. I mean, depending on the age of the speaker, this quote would not be unusual:

"I am not sure I can live that down - being beaten by a 19-year-old kid.”


Musical fans the world over know that the match for "Guy" is "Doll".

I note with interest that during the last two Winter Olympics, after the Canadian Women's Hockey Team won the gold medal, the men's team was exhorted to "Play Like Girls". I was amused and pleased by the subversion of the cliche, but it's only funny because the word "girl" is normally derogatory in sports.
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sikeospi wrote:
Of course, according to the UN violence against women representative, apparently among all the horrible, torture-inducing countries in the world, Britain is the most sexist -- so perhaps they are just being really sensitive or overly (expletive deleted)ly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boys-club-bri...

"sexualisation of women and girls in the media ..., misogynistic advertising, harassment on tubes and in public spaces, the bullying of girls in school, the 'disproportionate' effect of austerity measures on women, and the inability of the criminal justice system to respond to women and girl survivors of violence."

Harassment on tubes? Toothpaste tubes? Inner tubes? Eustachian tubes? I guess some people are just crazy for tubes...
Tubes, the underground (or as I believe you TP'ers call it the "big choo choo in big holes in ground").
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aiabx wrote:
booned wrote:
sikeospi wrote:

Article wrote:
"I really dislike the word girl! I think it’s appropriate to use it to refer to females up until, say, the age of 11 or 12, but not after that.

"I find it offensive when people refer to young women or adult females as “girls” because it diminishes who and what we are, and makes us seem young and unimportant," she said.

Epstein also highlighted the different ways men and women are addressed:

"I would never refer to colleagues as “boys”, nor would I call grown men “boys”, and yet people, especially men, continually do this to me and to other women."



Many attacks on the word "girl" to refer to grown women are misguided, in my opinion, because it supposes the alternate is "boy". However "girl" has become the feminine version of "guy", ever since "gal" fell out of use.

Man : Woman
Boy : Girl
Guy : Girl

So anytime I see the word "girl" used to refer to a grown woman, I mentally substitute "guy" and see if it fits. If it does, I don't feel that it's a sexist usage.

(Maybe using "girl" instead of "guy" isn't ideal. Maybe "gal" should come back, so we can avoid this ambiguity. But it's how I see people of both sexes use "girl" day-to-day, for what it's worth.)

Having said all that, the use of "girl" in the BBC programme does look like it is meant like "boy". But is that sexist? If we substitute with "boy":

"I am not sure I can live that down - being beaten by a 19-year-old boy.”

I think use of "boy" in this context fits, because a 19 year old is pretty young. I don't know how old Mark Beaumont is, but at a certain age you're going to look at 19 year olds closer to kids than adults. I mean, depending on the age of the speaker, this quote would not be unusual:

"I am not sure I can live that down - being beaten by a 19-year-old kid.”


Musical fans the world over know that the match for "Guy" is "Doll".

I note with interest that during the last two Winter Olympics, after the Canadian Women's Hockey Team won the gold medal, the men's team was exhorted to "Play Like Girls". I was amused and pleased by the subversion of the cliche, but it's only funny because the word "girl" is normally derogatory in sports.
Which is of course why the word was edited.

Here by the way is an example of the New BBC ban in action http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-27615590, no use of the word there (where it might actually be appropriate).
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Throwing like a girl is actually a phrase used horribly, as said above, but also describes a quick throw without much windup because in baseball, with 90 foot bases the speed of the ball matters more, while in softball, with 60 foot bases, the time to release the ball matters more.
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Jythier wrote:
Throwing like a girl is actually a phrase used horribly, as said above, but also describes a quick throw without much windup because in baseball, with 90 foot bases the speed of the ball matters more, while in softball, with 60 foot bases, the time to release the ball matters more.
Might be relevant, if Baseball and softball were popular in the UK.
 
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sikeospi wrote:
Quote:
That's just a special case of the more general rule that X has not done Y, regardless of what Chris says, which in turn is just a branch of the RSP law, Chris says X; therefore ~X.


Some people never understand comedy.


I was talking about your posts, not comedy...wait a minute! Suddenly it all makes sense!
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Quote:
...he really does think they've banned it.


Huffingtonpost.co.uk used the word “ban” in their article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/28/girl-sexist-addre...

The Dailymail.co.uk used the word “ban” in their article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638404/Now-BBC-bans...

...

However, I am not allowed to use the word "ban"?

You are banning me from using the word "ban".

Banning ban!?



Now that's the most clever way to debate.

I wonder what UN Secretary General (new word deleted) Ki-moon would think about this maneuver, especially if he was wearing Ray-(new word deleted) sunglasses. cool
 
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sikeospi wrote:
Huffingtonpost.co.uk used the word “ban” in their article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/28/girl-sexist-addre...

The Dailymail.co.uk used the word “ban” in their article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638404/Now-BBC-bans...

...

However, I am not allowed to use the word "ban"?

That's right. If they haven't banned it, you can't say they've banned it. Well you can, but people will think you are foolish.

Click on Slater's link above to see the non-ban in action.
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This has turned into one of those sikeospi threads, hasn't it? ...
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sikeospi wrote:
Quote:
...he really does think they've banned it.


Huffingtonpost.co.uk used the word “ban” in their article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/28/girl-sexist-addre...

The Dailymail.co.uk used the word “ban” in their article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638404/Now-BBC-bans...

...

However, I am not allowed to use the word "ban"?

You are banning me from using the word "ban".

Banning ban!?



Now that's the most clever way to debate.

I wonder what UN Secretary General (new word deleted) Ki-moon would think about this maneuver, especially if he was wearing Ray-(new word deleted) sunglasses. :cool:
Do you read past the headlines?

Quote:
The uncensored clip remains on the BBC’s website.


So in fact they have not in fact even "banned" the offensive clip, just edited out of a repeat broadcast.


 
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Gialmere wrote:

So the question is: if you say someone "fights (or throws etc.) like a girl" are you being sexist? The BBC now says yes.


Because it is sexist.

Why not say "throws like a child" or "throws like a baby"? Making an insult gender specific is sexist.
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Quote:
Because it is sexist.


"I am not sure I can live that down -– being beaten by a 19-year-old girl."

I think it was supposed to be compliment.

Not his fault some people who are not the person in question are not able to understand a compliment.

"I wasn't offended -– I didn't find it sexist." -- Cynthia Rahming, the teenage judo champion in question
 
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sikeospi wrote:
Quote:
Because it is sexist.


"I am not sure I can live that down -– being beaten by a 19-year-old girl."

I think it was supposed to be compliment.


Only in much the same way as "I can't believe I was beaten by you in that game, I'll never live it down" might be considered a compliment.
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