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Subject: A leftist wet dream paid for by your tax dollars rss

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Ron
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So I'm picking up that BJ is like the opposite side of the mirror to Shreve?
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Dave G
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The Beej wrote:

A youth movement led by a charismatic community organizer convinces people to do away with their worldly possessions, confiscate property from the wealthy, and usher in a grand new era of communism and happiness.


It's Christianity happening before your very eyes!
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Dave G
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Also, for the record: This project sounds incredibly stupid and like a tremendous waste of $5M. No disagreement there.
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Blorb Plorbst
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Here's the actual website for the project:

https://wsc.limnology.wisc.edu/about/project

Where you will find that it is much more about research and model development than the fiction that BJ's article presents.
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Josh
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Ehn, there are better things to spend money on, but it's better than another bomber.
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Dave G
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Certainly no surprise that the news focused on the sillier and more easily mocked aspects of the project, but you can't honestly say it's "much more about research and model development" when they're touting the "storytelling" aspect of the project all over their website.

Also, is it less a waste of money if only some portion of $5M went to this nonsense?
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William Boykin
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But Cranky-

Climate models ARE fiction!!!

Darilian
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Shadrach wrote:
Ehn, there are better things to spend money on, but it's better than another bomber.


Both are wastes of money. Both should be appalling.
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Children of the Grave

Revolution in their minds
The children start to march
Against the world in which they have to live
And all the hate that's in their hearts
They're tired of being pushed around
And told just what to do
They'll fight the world until they've won
And love comes flowing through.

Children of tomorrow live in the tears that fall today
Will the sunrise of tomorrow bringing peace in any way
Must the world live in the shadow of atomic fear
Can they win the fight for peace or will they disappear?

So you children of the world, listen to what I say
If you want a better place to live in spread the word today
Show the world that love is still alive you must be brave
Or you children of today are children of the grave.
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Dave G
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Darilian wrote:
But Cranky-

Climate models ARE fiction!!!

Darilian


This isn't about climate models. The "models" they're talking about are this nonsense that BJ was making fun of, the idea of four unique "scenarios" for the future of the watershed. Since not one of the four seems remotely realistic or practical, I'm not seeing a lot of scientific value from this. Much as I hate to agree with Captain Analingus up there, he's right--this sounds like a fourth grade science project.
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William Boykin
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
But Cranky-

Climate models ARE fiction!!!

Darilian


This isn't about climate models. The "models" they're talking about are this nonsense that BJ was making fun of, the idea of four unique "scenarios" for the future of the watershed. Since not one of the four seems remotely realistic or practical, I'm not seeing a lot of scientific value from this. Much as I hate to agree with Captain Analingus up there, he's right--this sounds like a fourth grade science project.


You're focusing upon ONE part of the overall project and assuming that that is where all the money is being spent.

This $5 million is being spent on several things- this storytelling part that BJ is mocking is only a small part of it. But conflating the two is BJ's rhetorical tactic- by taking a small part of a program out of context, show how silly it looks, and then insinuating that this small piece of the program is incurring the costs of the ENTIRE program, one can then effectively mock the entire program as 'silly' and not worth the money spent on it without actually looking at the cost/benefits of the program in toto.

A common rhetorical trick. Sen. William Proxmire loved to do this sort of thing all the time with his 'Golden Fleece' awards.

Darilian
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Dave G
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Darilian wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
But Cranky-

Climate models ARE fiction!!!

Darilian


This isn't about climate models. The "models" they're talking about are this nonsense that BJ was making fun of, the idea of four unique "scenarios" for the future of the watershed. Since not one of the four seems remotely realistic or practical, I'm not seeing a lot of scientific value from this. Much as I hate to agree with Captain Analingus up there, he's right--this sounds like a fourth grade science project.


You're focusing upon ONE part of the overall project and assuming that that is where all the money is being spent.

This $5 million is being spent on several things- this storytelling part that BJ is mocking is only a small part of it. But conflating the two is BJ's rhetorical tactic- by taking a small part of a program out of context, show how silly it looks, and then insinuating that this small piece of the program is incurring the costs of the ENTIRE program, one can then effectively mock the entire program as 'silly' and not worth the money spent on it without actually looking at the cost/benefits of the program in toto.

A common rhetorical trick. Sen. William Proxmire loved to do this sort of thing all the time with his 'Golden Fleece' awards.

Darilian


Show me the rest of the program. I'm not reading BJ's article, I'm looking at their own website.

Edit to add: I see the research section. I'm not impressed.
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Dave G
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Also, even if this stupidity is only a small part of the project, it's still a waste. And anyone willing to waste money on this kind of bullshit doesn't deserve the research grant to begin with. A good researcher shouldn't feel like they have the luxury to waste money, because any extra funds could be used to improve the research. If their landscape analysis or biophysical models are so important, the money should be going to that rather than this "innovative" storytelling nonsense.
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William Boykin
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
But Cranky-

Climate models ARE fiction!!!

Darilian


This isn't about climate models. The "models" they're talking about are this nonsense that BJ was making fun of, the idea of four unique "scenarios" for the future of the watershed. Since not one of the four seems remotely realistic or practical, I'm not seeing a lot of scientific value from this. Much as I hate to agree with Captain Analingus up there, he's right--this sounds like a fourth grade science project.


You're focusing upon ONE part of the overall project and assuming that that is where all the money is being spent.

This $5 million is being spent on several things- this storytelling part that BJ is mocking is only a small part of it. But conflating the two is BJ's rhetorical tactic- by taking a small part of a program out of context, show how silly it looks, and then insinuating that this small piece of the program is incurring the costs of the ENTIRE program, one can then effectively mock the entire program as 'silly' and not worth the money spent on it without actually looking at the cost/benefits of the program in toto.

A common rhetorical trick. Sen. William Proxmire loved to do this sort of thing all the time with his 'Golden Fleece' awards.

Darilian


Show me the rest of the program. I'm not reading BJ's article, I'm looking at their own website.

Edit to add: I see the research section. I'm not impressed.


Cranky's link will work.

I'm not here to defend the program, per se- mostly to point out that just because they spent a couple hundred bucks on a brainstorming project doesn't mean that the overall program is shite.

The program may, or may not, suck. But the argument that it does suck should be done on its own merits. The OP is just a dodge- a smear tactic which, while fun to look at, doesn't really say anything about whether or not this program lacks merit or not.

Darilian
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Blorb Plorbst
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https://wsc.limnology.wisc.edu/research/biophysical-models

Quote:
WSC is using a suite of numerical models to assess the effects of potential changes on freshwater and other ecosystem services. The models will provide measurable information on how ecological conditions that are important to human and ecosystem well-being could change over time, to the year 2070. These conditions include climate, lake water quality, crop production, water balance (i.e., the amount of water flowing into, out of, and within the watershed), groundwater levels and supply, nutrient cycling, and patterns of vegetation across the landscape.

Model Innovations

WSC is taking an innovative route to modeling ecological conditions. New features include the following:

Groundwater simulation: We have introduced groundwater to our modeling framework so that we may study the role that groundwater plays within the watershed, such as how groundwater levels affect and respond to plant growth and changes in groundwater supply.
Phosphorus cycling: We have added the capacity to simulate phosphorus cycling within our modeling framework. This allows us to investigate the effects of multiple drivers of change on surface water quality, including climate change and farm management practices.
Lake water quality: WSC models will estimate water quality using existing models that are based on extensive long-term data on phosphorus and water quality.
Holistic framework: A combination of models will provide a comprehensive assessment of the Yahara Watershed’s ecological conditions and processes. For issues of nonpoint source pollution, the framework will enable simulation from source to sink: from fertilizer application on croplands to the downstream effects on lakes.
The Modeling Suite

Agro-IBIS: Terrestrial Ecosystem Processes
Agro-IBIS is responsible for simulating terrestrial ecosystem processes. This includes the movement, or “cycling,” of energy, water, and nutrients (e.g., carbon, phosphorus and nitrogen) within soil, vegetation, and the atmosphere.

For example, Agro-IBIS can simulate the movement of water from the atmosphere (rain), to the soil, to plants growing in the soil, and back to the atmosphere through transpiration.

Agro-IBIS provides a way to track ecosystem processes over time. It can provide insight into how certain drivers of ecological change, such as climate and land use, affect ecological functions like plant growth and nutrient cycling.

MODFLOW: Groundwater flow
MODFLOW is a widely used model developed by the U.S. Geological Survey. It simulates the flow of groundwater and its connections to the water cycle, including evapotranspiration, recharge, and discharge to streams, lakes, and wetlands. It will also help WSC investigate the impacts of groundwater pumping for municipal drinking water and agricultural irrigation.

THMB: Terrestrial Hydrology & Biogeochemistry Model
Based on the land’s topography, THMB simulates the flow of water, sediment, and nutrients through rivers, wetlands, lakes, and human-made reservoirs. Used together, Agro-IBIS and THMB can simulate the movement of water and nutrients from the landscape, through the stream network, and into a large water body, such as a lake. With MODFLOW, we can also incorporate changes in groundwater levels, enabling a more complete picture of the entire hydrologic system and allowing us to study the interactions between groundwater and vegetation.

YWQM: Yahara Water Quality Model
Yahara Water Quality Model (YWQM) uses the simulated flows of water, sediment, and phosphorus from Agro-IBIS/MODFLOW and THMB to project changes in lake water quality. Phosphorus degrades lake water quality by creating conditions conducive to eutrophication, which can lead to harmful algae growth. By including YWQM in the model suite, we can study how lake water quality might react to changes in climate, land use and land management.YWQM uses data provided by the North Temperate Lakes Long-Term Ecological Research program and the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources.
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Moshe Callen
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linguistfromhell wrote:
So I'm picking up that BJ is like the opposite side of the mirror to Shreve?

He wasn't always but, um, it's getting increasingly difficult to defend...
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Actually, this sounds like a rightist wet-dream actually. It validates their whole meme about the scientists being in it for the grants and the money. Now they can bring this story up as the uber-anecdote every time one of their denier pseudo-scientists gets debunked. Thank you Global Warming!
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William Boykin
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I have no idea what any of that means, but it seems to me to be prima facie and worth $5 million dollars.

The impact of global warming on water table levels out here in Texas are poorly understood but yet of vital concern to everyone in the state- rural and urban.

Darilian
 
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Blorb Plorbst
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As for the "Storytelling" approach to illustrating their modelling results, I think that's an important aspect of making the research understandable to policy makers.

Complex models and simulations don't output simple results. They produce results that require people with specialized knowledge of the field to analyze and interpret. Turning that into a story can help people understand the output without the need of an 8 year degree.
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Dave G
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The project has only produced 7 scholarly papers. For $5M. One of which appears to reach the conclusion that "substantial and sustained commitments to nonpoint phosphorous load abatement are required to remedy eutrophication in the Yahara lakes, as with many other lakes around the world." Which, coincidentally, was also their starting point. Typical academic masturbation, publishing for publication's sake.
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linguistfromhell wrote:
So I'm picking up that BJ is like the opposite side of the mirror to Shreve?


How can you -possibly- say that? BJ was offering his own opinion and commentary on the subject.
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Dave G
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GameCrossing wrote:
linguistfromhell wrote:
So I'm picking up that BJ is like the opposite side of the mirror to Shreve?


How can you -possibly- say that? BJ was offering his own opinion and commentary on the subject.


And not a single unrelated YouTube video.
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bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
The project has only produced 7 scholarly papers. For $5M. One of which appears to reach the conclusion that "substantial and sustained commitments to nonpoint phosphorous load abatement are required to remedy eutrophication in the Yahara lakes, as with many other lakes around the world." Which, coincidentally, was also their starting point. Typical academic masturbation, publishing for publication's sake.


So basically they don't want us to have clean clothes then.


They basically concluded after much research that someone ought to do some research on how to actually solve the problem. But hey! Thanks tenured professors for justifying your existence by clarifying that the problem you identified to research is still a problem that someone should research!

(I'd make fun of the other papers too, but that was the only one I could find the full text for on Google Scholar.)
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Darilian wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
But Cranky-

Climate models ARE fiction!!!

Darilian


This isn't about climate models. The "models" they're talking about are this nonsense that BJ was making fun of, the idea of four unique "scenarios" for the future of the watershed. Since not one of the four seems remotely realistic or practical, I'm not seeing a lot of scientific value from this. Much as I hate to agree with Captain Analingus up there, he's right--this sounds like a fourth grade science project.


You're focusing upon ONE part of the overall project and assuming that that is where all the money is being spent.

This $5 million is being spent on several things- this storytelling part that BJ is mocking is only a small part of it. But conflating the two is BJ's rhetorical tactic- by taking a small part of a program out of context, show how silly it looks, and then insinuating that this small piece of the program is incurring the costs of the ENTIRE program, one can then effectively mock the entire program as 'silly' and not worth the money spent on it without actually looking at the cost/benefits of the program in toto.

A common rhetorical trick. Sen. William Proxmire loved to do this sort of thing all the time with his 'Golden Fleece' awards.

Darilian


Show me the rest of the program. I'm not reading BJ's article, I'm looking at their own website.

Edit to add: I see the research section. I'm not impressed.


Cranky's link will work.

I'm not here to defend the program, per se- mostly to point out that just because they spent a couple hundred bucks on a brainstorming project doesn't mean that the overall program is shite.

The program may, or may not, suck. But the argument that it does suck should be done on its own merits. The OP is just a dodge- a smear tactic which, while fun to look at, doesn't really say anything about whether or not this program lacks merit or not.

Darilian


Then let's put it this way: do you think it is appropriate for a research group receiving government funds to couch and promote its research in a way which blatantly advocates one particular political philosophy? What if the watershed could be incorporated in total while using free market principles instead of the Robin Hood scenario where marauding pockets of old curmudgeons are trying to ruin everything for the young people who know how to fix everything?
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Junior McSpiffy
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CrankyPants wrote:
As for the "Storytelling" approach to illustrating their modelling results, I think that's an important aspect of making the research understandable to policy makers.

Complex models and simulations don't output simple results. They produce results that require people with specialized knowledge of the field to analyze and interpret. Turning that into a story can help people understand the output without the need of an 8 year degree.


Then tell me how the model that was shared by BJ doesn't end up exactly the same way Occupy Wall Street did? Is the watershed powered by snapping fingers? Are people in the commune hired on a rotating shift to walk around and wiggle fingers to make everything work?
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