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Subject: Andromeda deck size question..... rss

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Brad McGown
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Can a 60 card Andromeda deck have a feasible chance of being successful in a tourney? I don't have the time at this second to type up my deck list, but it covers several of the typical Criminal strategies in order to be ready for many different circumstances that cone up in a match. I have tried to widdel it down, but have gone about as far as I can with this particular strategy. So, what do you guys think, is 60 cards in an Andy deck too much?
 
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Chris Wood
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Why 60? I've used 49 before, since that would make her 9 card opening hand on par with every other runner, but 60 seems rather large.
 
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Martin Presley
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bm_eagle wrote:
Can a 60 card Andromeda deck have a feasible chance of being successful in a tourney? I don't have the time at this second to type up my deck list, but it covers several of the typical Criminal strategies in order to be ready for many different circumstances that cone up in a match. I have tried to widdel it down, but have gone about as far as I can with this particular strategy. So, what do you guys think, is 60 cards in an Andy deck too much?


46 cards is too much, forget 60. I mean, you might win some games, but mathematically, it's always optimal to have the minimum deck size for runner. Make the tough cuts, and you'll have a much leaner, more consistent deck.
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Sasha F
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hoobajoo wrote:
bm_eagle wrote:
Can a 60 card Andromeda deck have a feasible chance of being successful in a tourney? I don't have the time at this second to type up my deck list, but it covers several of the typical Criminal strategies in order to be ready for many different circumstances that cone up in a match. I have tried to widdel it down, but have gone about as far as I can with this particular strategy. So, what do you guys think, is 60 cards in an Andy deck too much?


46 cards is too much, forget 60. I mean, you might win some games, but mathematically, it's always optimal to have the minimum deck size for runner. Make the tough cuts, and you'll have a much leaner, more consistent deck.


Without being so absolute, I tend to agree. Having a deck that is flexible enough to handle most situations comes down to good design and play rather than putting in more situational cards.

The two most immediate arguments are that of Influence dilution and consistency. In general, influence is spent on the fundamental gaps in a faction's card pool and/or a deck's strategy. By adding cards beyond the minimum, you are necessarily decreasing the proportion of cards that can deal with this gap of in-faction cards. This generally creates an imbalance in proportions of types of cards you want (breakers, economy, etc).

The second problem is drawing into the cards that you need, when you need them. The biggest problem I would surmise is drawing your breakers in Andy. Criminals often spend a majority of their influence on programs and therefore already run pretty scant lines of them. Certainly tutoring helps, but even Special Order must be drawn. Adding cards beyond the minimum generally means more draws that are ineffectual. Having a bevy of specialized answers for problems that can arise at the cost of setting up your deck's core concept doesn't seem worth it to me.

That being said, I often have trouble cutting to 45 as well. It's hard to let go of cards that you consider good. In the end, it's almost always worth it, as you draw the cards you consider great more frequently.
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Andrew
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Even if your larger deck has strategies for more circumstances, it's more difficult to draw into any particular one of them. Larger decks in general make it more likely to get streaky draws, even if the proportions remain the same.
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Chris Wood
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One mistake is trying to be prepared for "everything" figure out what cards you can cut out that you need to preapre for something, and cut them. See what what brings you to. Maybe you have 3 of every card, but a bunch of uniques, cut them down to 2.

Or worst case play 5 games. Mark down which cards were not played from hand, or you wish you hadn't drawn. Look for a pattern, then cut 5-6 cards. Repeat until you get down to 45
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Patrick Jamet
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hoobajoo wrote:
46 cards is too much, forget 60. I mean, you might win some games, but mathematically, it's always optimal to have the minimum deck size for runner. Make the tough cuts, and you'll have a much leaner, more consistent deck.

46 is fine. Mathematics don't win or lose games. Players do.

I have lost more games because I clicked too much for Kati or because I should not have done an expensive run than because I run a 46-card decks.

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Zeb
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Pyjam wrote:
hoobajoo wrote:
46 cards is too much, forget 60. I mean, you might win some games, but mathematically, it's always optimal to have the minimum deck size for runner. Make the tough cuts, and you'll have a much leaner, more consistent deck.

46 is fine. Mathematics don't win or lose games. Players do.

I have lost more games because I clicked too much for Kati or because I should not have done an expensive run than because I run a 46-card decks.



But it's not optimal, as he said.
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Captain Frisk
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Zebadiah wrote:
Pyjam wrote:
hoobajoo wrote:
46 cards is too much, forget 60. I mean, you might win some games, but mathematically, it's always optimal to have the minimum deck size for runner. Make the tough cuts, and you'll have a much leaner, more consistent deck.

46 is fine. Mathematics don't win or lose games. Players do.

I have lost more games because I clicked too much for Kati or because I should not have done an expensive run than because I run a 46-card decks.



But it's not optimal, as he said.


I challenge anyone to prove that it's "optimal".

As a counter example, if a runners mimimum deck size was "5", would it be correct to play with a 5 card deck?

Now - I'm reasonably confident in saying that the 60 card deck can be improved by reducing cards - but I doubt any of us are qualified to state with mathematical certainty that it is, let alone 46 vs. 45
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Zeb
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Reasons why 45-card Andromeda is optimal:

-Influence. With more than 45, your valuable use of influence is diluted. Every card you add is a Corroder/Yog/Datasucker that you're not drawing.

-Reliability. You have certain cards for a reason and can only include 3 of each. I'm sure someone will ninja my post saying that there is always a worst card in the deck and it's usually beneficial to take it out if possible.

-Cohesion. Right now, the ANR card pool isn't that large. For a competitive deck you only want the best cards that work well together, without being bogged down by suboptimal cards.


That said, there are a few advantages to non-minimal deck size:

-Protection against attrition, specifically Jinteki net damage

-less chance to draw duplicates of cards you already have (although this means less chance of the first copy as well)
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Zebadiah wrote:
That said, there are a few advantages to non-minimal deck size:

-Protection against attrition, specifically Jinteki net damage

-less chance to draw duplicates of cards you already have (although this means less chance of the first copy as well)


-More time playing the deck in its current configuration

-Fewer hairs torn out due to frustration
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Christopher MacLeod
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A number of people have given excellent reasons to run a small deck. Here are some reasons why going slightly over the minimum may be correct:

- You have a lot of searching cards like Special Order or Hostage and you want to squeeze in a single copy of some cards that are occasionally very useful, without cutting your core functionality.

- You want to add a card to an already good deck; cutting the wrong card from a good 45 can be much worse than adding a 46th.

- You've tested with 45 and often run out of cards in your stack. This can be because you often play against Corps that deal a lot of damage, or because your deck requires drawing a huge number of cards.

Think about if any of these reasons apply to you - if so then 46-50 cards may be reasonable. 60 is way too much.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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bm_eagle wrote:
I have tried to widdel it down, but have gone about as far as I can with this particular strategy.



FYI, whittle, verb: "to carve (wood) into an object by repeatedly cutting small slices from it."

What I recommend is that you force yourself to cut 5 cards, then regain your equilibrium. Then cut 5 cards, then regain your equilibrium. If necessary, shuffle your deck and cut 5 cards at random.
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Grant Cain
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Sigh....... Why did I even start reading this thread. My own fault.
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Patrick Jamet
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What is optimal with Andromeda: 3x Desperado (2 duplicates) or 2x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast ?

I believe 2x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast is mathematically better. With 3 copies of a card (instead of 2), you draw it on average 5 draw-clicks earlier, but Daily Cast gives 5 credits (without the need for a successful run). I think it's a better deal, and you avoid drawing one duplicate. This assuming you don't need the +1 MU 5 clicks earlier (on average).

There's no doubt that I prefer an Andy starting hand with 1x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast over 2x Desperado, and probably also 1x Daily Cast over 1x Desperado (except when the two Desperadoes are deep in the stack).

If I'm wrong, I believe it can be mathematically proven, and I'm honestly interested by the demonstration.

If I'm right, why do people use 45-cards Andy decks with 3x Desperado ? That goes against their principles.
 
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j n
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Pyjam wrote:
If I'm right, why do people use 45-cards Andy decks with 3x Desperado ? That goes against their principles.


I dunno about anyone else, but I use 3x Desperado and 3x Daily Casts in my Andy deck.
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Steven Tu
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lactamaeon wrote:
Pyjam wrote:
If I'm right, why do people use 45-cards Andy decks with 3x Desperado ? That goes against their principles.


I dunno about anyone else, but I use 3x Desperado and 3x Daily Casts in my Andy deck.


Ditto, I don't understand this principle of which you speak Pyjam. My principle is wanting to draw a Desperado in my opening. If I draw two, so much the better, I get a run
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Patrick Jamet
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Good!

But on Stimhack, there are many winning tournament decks with 3x Desperado and not 3x Daily Casts.
 
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Chris Wood
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You can also even make an argument for Andy with 49, rather than drawing deeper into your deck, her draw size lets you "start" with 40 cards in stack just like everyone else after their 5 card draw. Of course, that is eliminating one of the ID powers as well.
 
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Captain Frisk
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Pyjam wrote:
What is optimal with Andromeda: 3x Desperado (2 duplicates) or 2x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast ?

I believe 2x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast is mathematically better. With 3 copies of a card (instead of 2), you draw it on average 5 draw-clicks earlier, but Daily Cast gives 5 credits (without the need for a successful run). I think it's a better deal, and you avoid drawing one duplicate. This assuming you don't need the +1 MU 5 clicks earlier (on average).

There's no doubt that I prefer an Andy starting hand with 1x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast over 2x Desperado, and probably also 1x Daily Cast over 1x Desperado (except when the two Desperadoes are deep in the stack).

If I'm wrong, I believe it can be mathematically proven, and I'm honestly interested by the demonstration.

If I'm right, why do people use 45-cards Andy decks with 3x Desperado ? That goes against their principles.


5 clicks earlier is a BIG deal for a core card like desperado. You can straight up win games only having desperado installed. The memory from desperado is nice, but the ability to not cripple your economy while still providing pressure is huge. Opponent is HB and spamming out economy assets? It doesn't cost you large tempo to go check them.

Think your opponent has 1 agenda in a hand of 5 and want to run it 4 times? Even if you miss 4 times in a row, you still gained $4 out of it. It forces the corp to rez ice because even runs that don't result in agendas still add value.

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Patrick Jamet
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Tuism wrote:
Ditto, I don't understand this principle of which you speak Pyjam. My principle is wanting to draw a Desperado in my opening. If I draw two, so much the better, I get a run

The idea is: if you think 45 cards is "optimal", why do you play a card with two duplicates when it's probably not optimal because of the two dead draws.

If you do it for the gain in credits, you'd better play a good econ card instead. If it's not Daily Cast, it's Security Testing. You will gain way more credits with Security Testing than with a dead draw.
 
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Captain Frisk
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Pyjam wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Ditto, I don't understand this principle of which you speak Pyjam. My principle is wanting to draw a Desperado in my opening. If I draw two, so much the better, I get a run

The idea is: if you think 45 cards is "optimal", why do you play a card with two duplicates when it's probably not optimal because of the two dead draws.

If you do it for the gain in credits, you'd better play a good econ card instead. If it's not Daily Cast, it's Security Testing. You will gain way more credits with Security Testing than with a dead draw.


I'm not a 45 IS ALWAYS OPTIMAL AND YOU"RE CRAZY IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE person, but I would put 4-6 copies of desperado in just about every deck if I could.

An early desperado can easily be worth 20 credits by the end of the game, and rewards you for doing something you need to do anyway.

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j n
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Pyjam wrote:
I believe 2x Desperado + 1x Daily Cast is mathematically better. With 3 copies of a card (instead of 2), you draw it on average 5 draw-clicks earlier, but Daily Cast gives 5 credits (without the need for a successful run). I think it's a better deal, and you avoid drawing one duplicate. This assuming you don't need the +1 MU 5 clicks earlier (on average).

5 clicks earlier is a BIG deal for a core card like desperado.


Not to mention that it isn't necessarily 5 clicks sooner, but 5 draws sooner, which could be a much larger number of clicks if you stop to make some runs, install some breakers, play the economy card you put in your deck instead of the third Desperado, etc.
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Patrick Jamet
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
5 clicks earlier is a BIG deal for a core card like desperado. You can straight up win games only having desperado installed. The memory from desperado is nice, but the ability to not cripple your economy while still providing pressure is huge. Opponent is HB and spamming out economy assets? It doesn't cost you large tempo to go check them.

Think your opponent has 1 agenda in a hand of 5 and want to run it 4 times? Even if you miss 4 times in a row, you still gained $4 out of it. It forces the corp to rez ice because even runs that don't result in agendas still add value.

I like your answer because we are now exactly where I wanted.

You imagine a specific situation that sometimes happens, but more often not, to justify a 3rd Desperado.

Therefore your decision to include a 3rd copy of Desperado isn't strictly dictated by mathematics, but by other considerations like early pressure.

By your knowledge of this game, you believe it's better to include a 3rd Desperado despite the fact it's probably mathematically not optimal.

The problem is to define what is optimal. There are too many considerations. Netrunner isn't a combo game. Sometimes it's better to have one more Inside Job, and sometimes it's better to have one less and one more Emergency Shutdown.

I'm glad you share my opinion about this 45-card limit.

A 46th card adds a delta (d) in dilution and an epsilon (e) in efficiency in some situations.
Is (d > e) or (e < d) for 46 cards ?
And for 47 cards ?
And for 100 cards ?
How d and e are varying with the number of cards ?
I have no answer and nobody have them.
It certainly depends on the composition of the deck.

The only thing I know for sure is that I've run 46-card decks more often than 45-card deck with no problem.
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Sacre Bleu
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No. 3 desperados is mathematically better because your chance of drawing one earlier increases, and it's right up there as the best card in your deck. Therefore, you always want to draw it as early as possible. Desperado is precisely a card that is not situational: you always want it, and you want it as fast as possible.

Your deck contains other such cards. If it's bigger you will see those cards less often. Therefore you are driving down the average card quality of your deck by diluting it.

I honestly don't really think there's room for debate here. By now, this has been well established in other card game communities, and it still holds here. We only make an exception for corp decks since diluting them is actually a positive effect.

I can guarentee that you lost games because of your 46 card deck. It won't be obvious to you unless you stop to think about it, because the effect is that you take more clicks to draw the important cards. Any game where you draw the important card a click too late, you may have your 46th card to thank for.
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