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Subject: plebian council rss

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Kevin
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Someone in my game group argued themselves a victory that Plebian Council card which states something like,

" you win if you have more laborer clients than any other player"
Pete who played the card, said "there I have more Laborers than Kev."

The rest of us argued, that Pete did not have more Laborers than say Chris.

Pete argued that the card said "ANY" player, not "All other" players.

We had always played it that "Any" meant "all" but now we aren't so sure.

Any advice appreciated
thx
kev
 
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Luis Olcese
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You are right, "any" means "everybody"
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Jonathan C
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lolcese wrote:
You are right, "any" means "everybody"


While I believe that you may be correct about the intended interpretation of this card, the primary definition according to Merriam Webster isn't as you say. It is always a secondary definition to mean "every" or "all".

Merriam Webster Definition wrote:
1: one or some indiscriminately of whatever kind:
a : one or another taken at random
b : every —used to indicate one selected without restriction
2: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity:
a : one or more —used to indicate an undetermined number or amount
b : all —used to indicate a maximum or whole
c : a or some without reference to quantity or extent


In the Spirit of "This is Glory to Rome", I think your friend may have had it right in the stronger/over-powered understanding, because his interpretation of the card is clearly not contradicted by the card text itself!!! After all, it is not as though these cards were playtested or refined in any way, shape, or form!
 
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Jonathan C
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Also, this may need to be re-filed under the Geek mini-expansion Promos here, instead of the base game: Glory to Rome Promo Cards
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Jonathan C
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In FACT, I just decided to open up my BlackBox Appendix III insert titled "UNOFFICIAL GEEK EXPANSION" and take a look. Here is what it says regarding this card:

Plebeian Council wrote:
Once this building is complete, you immediately win the game if both of its conditions are met:
1. The total number of Laborer Clients held by all players is strictly higher than the total number of Legionary Clients held by all players.
2. You personally have strictly more Laborer Clients than any other single player.


I think this is pretty clear. If you, as the player of Plebeian Council, have more Laborer clients than even one other player, and criteria #1 is met, you win. Text on card is consistent with this interpretation.

Edit: spelling
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EXTRA AVOCADO! Sonderegger
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looleypalooley wrote:
In FACT, I just decided to open up my BlackBox Appendix III insert titled "UNOFFICIAL GEEK EXPANSION" and take a look. Here is what it says regarding this card:

Plebeian Council wrote:
Once this building is complete, you immediately win the game if both of its conditions are met:
1. The total number of Laborer Clients held by all players is strictly higher than the total number of Legionary Clients held by all players.
2. You personally have strictly more Laborer Clients than any other single player.


I think this is pretty clear. If you, as the player of Plebeian Council, have more Laborer clients than even one other player, and criteria #1 is met, you win. Text on card is consistent with this interpretation.

Edit: spelling



Gooooo pete!
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Robert Seater
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lolcese wrote:
You are right, "any" means "everybody"

'ANY' is one of those words that keeps logicians up at night and which requirements engineers dread. The formalism is a nightmare, and it should probably just be avoided in (any) formal settings. I am part logician and part requirements engineer, so I really shouldn't have let that one by! Sorry!
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Robert Seater
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The intended interpretation is that you must have more laborers than each other player, when there are more laborers than legionnaires.

That is, the peasants revolt and you are the leader of the peasants.
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Robert Seater
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My only excuse is that there was a very short development time between the contest for suggestions and the printing. I did playtesting with a hand-written version, and didn't get to do blind testing on teh final layout/typed phrasing.

If I'd known how long it was going to take to actually produce/deliver the game, I would have pushed for a longer development cycle with proper blind testing. As it was, I was still thinking that the post-KS distribution was going to be swift and efficient, so I did what I could under the time constraints that I was given. (That's right; I'm on the bandwagon of blaming Ed. )
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Tim Bueschel
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Maybe they will fix this in the next print run! shake
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Jeremy Hager
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We take this card out whenever we play. It's a bit broken.
 
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Jeremy Hager
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Holy crap, a designer! I love your game, Rob
 
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Chad Miller
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rseater wrote:
'ANY' is one of those words that keeps logicians up at night and which requirements engineers dread. The formalism is a nightmare, and it should probably just be avoided in (any) formal settings. I am part logician and part requirements engineer, so I really shouldn't have let that one by! Sorry!


I have a math degree and it never occurred to me to play this other than as intended anyway.

Even under the correct interpretation, I ban the card anyway. Oddly enough, the incorrect interpretation does get rid of my "everyone is a kingmaker" complaint, but at the expense of becoming completely broken.
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Chad Miller
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I mean, if I said "I can beat any person in a fight", a reasonable person would assume that I'm bragging about being the best fighter in the world, and not observing that (there exists) (one element in the set of "people") (such that I can beat them in a fight). Basically this whole discussion is someone trying to read logician-speak where English was intended.
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Robert Seater
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PraetorianXVIII wrote:
Holy crap, a designer! I love your game, Rob

Well, I'm not the designer of the game itself. I was a developer for the game, and I worked on the fan-suggested-card expansion. Carl & Ed deserve the credit for the original game!
 
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PraetorianXVIII wrote:
We take this card out whenever we play. It's a bit broken.

I'd love to do another printing of the expansion with better balance -- they were done on a very short time frame based on inputs from BGG users. I did some tests to get them in the right ball park, but not the kind of thorough balancing I pride myself on as a developer. So, I'd love feedback on the expansion cards for future printings!

I know that Bacchanalia is too strong (but that's pretty easy to fix), but I wasn't sure about Plebian Council. Is PC really that much stronger than Catacombs or Forum? Would a simple third condition help bring it into balance, but still leave it as an interesting part of the meta-game? (e.g. "AND you must have at least 4 total laborers")
 
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SlebRittie wrote:
I mean, if I said "I can beat any person in a fight", a reasonable person would assume that I'm bragging about being the best fighter in the world, and not observing that (there exists) (one element in the set of "people") (such that I can beat them in a fight). Basically this whole discussion is someone trying to read logician-speak where English was intended.

This reminds me of a cartoon with a picture of a bruised fellow at the bottom of a staircase.

"In the United States, someone falls down the stairs every 5 minutes. Bob is that person."
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Chad Miller
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Plebian Council has two large flaws:

-You can complete it with one Laborer if you build it early enough

-The only counter requires taking actions that may not even be remotely reasonable in some games

These two combine together to mean:

-If the pool is light, "everyone is a kingmaker" because the only way to prevent a PC win is to waste your Clientele/Patron actions taking otherwise underpowered clients. The person who actually does this is basically jumping on the grenade for the other non-PC players.

The difference with Catacombs is that you end the game, not win, so other players can simply try to stay ahead on points. The difference with Forum is that it takes some work to set up. PC can ruin the game within the first couple rounds, and even worse, it doesn't even have the decency to immediately end the game even if it's immediately decided the game. I ban it more for general unpleasantness than for power level.
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Kevin
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Until my friend argued that he won, if he simply had more laborers, than even one other person, I can't say that we had found PC any more powerful than a lot of cards in the game.

When we first played GTR, we thought wow! this card seems broken but then after a while, you realize loads are, so it didn't matter.

We all love the game, usually we end a game when we run out of foundations, which tells me, that overall the cards that provide instant win conditions don't work that often.
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I have many games under my belt, and usually a Plebeian Council does not win, with the exception of also having a Storeroom. This may be because my group heavily favors Legionary clients to Laborers, so even a Storeroom isn't a sure thing.
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Jeremy Hager
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I would say yeah, maybe tie something else onto it. I LOVE the flavor of the card, and love the idea behind it, as it forces people, at least in our meta, to patron for laborers and legionnaires, which we don't normally do much of. However, I think that making it ANY other player is a bit too low of a bar. Maybe tack onto it that using it has stronger ramifications against the owner defending against Legionnaires? I'm not sure. I do think that it's a bit more powerful than catacombs and forum. Catacombs is just a shitty "rocks fall, everyone dies" card that can go either direction. Forum takes a lot of work and usually we see it coming and can defend against it. PC is a "hah I win" card that is easier than the other two, because it doesn't end the game, it makes you insta-win. It's a very "F you" card, I feel.
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Jonathan C
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darthnice wrote:
I have many games under my belt, and usually a Plebeian Council does not win


Agreed, I have not seen a PC win either, but I've got probably less than 15 plays under my belt with the promos added in.
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Chad Miller
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fwiw, while I have no opinion on PC's power level in the general case, the problem games that caused me to remove it are the ones where someone built it as their very first building, before some players had even taken their third turn. These games were also 4p; I suspect it would not be nearly so bad in 2p. The problem isn't even so much winrate as the fact that (in these particular circumstances) it just takes over everyone's strategy in a very bad way.
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Guillaume Chaput
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PraetorianXVIII wrote:
PC is a "hah I win" card that is easier than the other two, because it doesn't end the game, it makes you insta-win.


I don't understand that. I played that PC was stopping the game as soon as you meet the conditions, like forum.
So if I understand better now, when another condition is met (foundation, no more cards, or catacomb), then you check if you won because of the PC.
What about a end game triggered by the forum? I guess forum victory has the priority?

Thanks!
 
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Robert Seater
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PC definitely ends the game (with you as the winner) once the condition is met. In that regards, it is just like Forum. When it hits the table, everyone needs to think about the new win condition before it can get completed.

Also, note that Catacombs is often insta-win if used early in the game. It doesn't just end the game -- it ends the game and gives you 3 points from its foundation. If completed early (when an early PC would trivially meet its condition), the extra 3 VP is usually enough to guarantee victory.

So, it still isn't obvious to me if PC is really any stronger or more swingy than Forum or Catacombs, assuming players are aware of the card in advance.
 
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