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Magic: The Gathering» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Copying a Spell. rss

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-If I am a red player, and I successfully play the 2 Red mana to
cast reverberate, against a blue player's successful cast of Counterspell
(I am on top of the stack), when I copy a spell, do I simply gain it's activated text after payment, or do I inherit the mana requirement cost, which I have to pay a second time myself (or not)?
 
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Jason Farris
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Zachary1234 wrote:
-If I am a red player, and I successfully play the 2 Red mana to
cast reverberate, against a blue player's successful cast of Counterspell
(I am on top of the stack), when I copy a spell, do I simply gain it's activated text after payment, or do I inherit the mana requirement cost, which I have to pay a second time myself (or not)?


you get an exact copy of the spell added to the stack, that you do not pay the mana cost for.

Thus, in your example, reverberate triggers before counterspell, Creates an exact copy of counterspell on the stack and you choose targets, which I'm guessing would be the other counterspell. It then triggers and counters the counterspell.

All for two red mana.
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Matt Hoskins
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To expand - all costs are paid by the copy.

Example: Opponent sacrifices a goblin as part of the cost to play Goblin Grenade. You then Reverberate. You don't sacrifice a goblin for the copy.

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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Smilinbrax wrote:
Thus, in your example, reverberate triggers before counterspell, Creates an exact copy of counterspell on the stack and you choose targets, which I'm guessing would be the other counterspell. It then triggers and counters the counterspell.
Yeah, I agree.

I'm going to nitpick on a different point, though, but just for reference: with a game like Magic, where words have a precise meaning, it is useful that players use the official vocabulary. Spells on the stack do not "trigger", they "resolve".
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Matt Hoskins
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lebigot wrote:

I'm going to nitpick on a different point, though, but just for reference: with a game like Magic, where words have a precise meaning, it is useful that players use the official vocabulary. Spells on the stack do not "trigger", they "resolve".



How precise do you really need to be?

If you want to get really precise - See rule 405.2 Objects on the stack "resolve".

Counter Spell - placed on Stack targeting a spell. Active Player passes Priority

Reverberate - placed on stack targeting Counter Spell. Both players pass priority.

Reverberate resolves creating an Object on the stack ( Copy of Counter Spell) with a target. Active Player receives priority....

For the sake of brevity I have omitted most of the 8 steps involved in casting each of the spells.

Magic is a highly involved game where established shortcuts are essential to gameplay. Yeah its important to get the lingo right. But...
 
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Matt, I agree that simpler and shorter rule explanations are useful.

But you are talking about giving detailed explanations, where I was talking about using the conventional vocabulary. The two are independent of each other.
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Joakim Björklund
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Yes, this is about using words like trigger for things that aren't triggers. Very important to get those things right. Short descriptions of how things work out is fine, going "by to book" citing the comp.rules aren't necessary for most situations.
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Bimmy Jim
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Going to have to agree with Eric on this one.. I'm not a fan of nitpicking, but terminology in MTG is very important.. and therefore I don't consider it nitpicking.

Nitpicking is telling someone to say "cast" rather than "play", or "exiled" instead of "removed from game".

Saying "Trigger" instead of "resolve" is much different as they have completely different meanings in magic.
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Matt Hoskins
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lebigot wrote:
Matt, I agree that simpler and shorter rule explanations are useful.

But you are talking about giving detailed explanations, where I was talking about using the conventional vocabulary. The two are independent of each other.


I guess my issue was, emphasis on past tense, was that you appeared to be selective about vocabulary. You choose to point out misuse of "resolve" and point out that spells resolve, but in the example we were looking out not everything on the stack was a spell, a point that I felt wasn't relevant to answering the question, but something you missed.

It looked like, "here's your answer and BTW here's your obligatory net-based lesson in how I'm better than you"

It just struck me wrong. Hooray for the internet.

 
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matthewjhoskins wrote:
You choose to point out misuse of "resolve" and point out that spells resolve, but in the example we were looking out not everything on the stack was a spell, a point that I felt wasn't relevant to answering the question, but something you missed.


But he wasn't describing all things that resolve. He was describing what happens to your spells on the stack.

Everything in this example is a spell. The original thing you cast that your opponent wanted to counter was a spell (if it wasn't, Counterspell could not have been cast targeting it). Your opponent's Counterspell was a spell. Your Reverberate was a spell. And when your Reverberate resolved, it put a copy of Counterspell on the stack - and that copy is also a spell. It's not a card, it was never cast, but it is a spell on the stack.

All of these are also objects. The rules discuss objects on the stack because the stack behaves the same way whether each object is a spell, or a triggered ability, or an activated ability. But in this example, all of the objects are, in fact, spells.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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matthewjhoskins wrote:
It looked like, "here's your answer and BTW here's your obligatory net-based lesson in how I'm better than you"

It just struck me wrong. Hooray for the internet.
Yeah, that would have been a wrong behavior, indeed.

My motivation was definitely not this one: the main reason I raised this issue about using the official Magic vocabulary is that an incorrect use of the vocabulary leads to confusion and waste of time (be it in understanding the rules, or in discussing about rule questions, etc.). Another reason is that there are regularly rule threads here that are started by players new to Magic: they will be better off if they do not learn the wrong vocabulary, for the same reasons.

Thank you JockiB, BimmyJim, dream_rpg and thatmarkguy for your support: thanks to you I learned that there was nothing arguably wrong in my initial remark—after reading Mark's reply, I wondered about this for some time…


Matt, I understand your frustration with some of the remarks found on the internet, and I hope that you are now fine with my initial reply in this thread: it does not fall in the same category of remarks.
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