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Subject: Arthur Chu on Nerd Misogyny rss

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William Boykin
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Avid watchers of TV (or at least, Talk Soup or whatnot) might have heard of Arthur Chu- Jeopardy champion who wins by trying to find all the Daily Double rather than playing a category one at a time. He's also a big nerd. Duh!

Well, he's written a very good piece for the Daily Beast about the Santa Barbara shootings. In it, he points out the myriad ways that nerd culture from Revenge of the Nerds to "Mario Bros." treat women as something that nerds earn after working harder than jocks- rather than as human beings capable of making a choice. The result is, as he puts it

Quote:
No, not the straw man that all men are constantly plotting rape, but that we live in an entitlement culture where guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled. That in a culture that constantly celebrates the narrative of guys trying hard, overcoming challenges, concocting clever ruses and automatically getting a woman thrown at them as a prize as a result, there will always be some guy who crosses the line into committing a violent crime to get what he “deserves,” or get vengeance for being denied it.


"Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds", by Arthur Chu, The Daily Beast, 5.27.14

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-prince...

The article is definite worth a read, but I think that Chu really makes clear what a lot of people here in RSP have been trying to explain in previous conversations about the Penny Arcade "Dickwolves Saga" and other incidents: That the concept of 'Rape Culture' doesn't mean that every man is a potential rapist, but that the culture reaffirms the myth that women are akin to trophies to be handed out for hard work, and not people. That if a man isn't constantly having sex with 'hot' women, he's a complete loser 'Beta'. That wealth, power, and the like entitles a man to his choice of woman, irregardless of that woman's feelings.

You might agree, you might disagree- but I think that Mr. Chu does a good job of really illustrating what the issue at hand is.

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I'm not typically a stickler for typos, but "irregardless" does grate on the mental ear.
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Damian
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That article was linked in the misogyny thread, but no one seemed to acknowledge it. Probably good it has its own thread.
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Mac Mcleod
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whac3 wrote:
I'm not typically a stickler for typos, but "irregardless" does grate on the mental ear.


Irregardless of that, "irregardless" became legal usage a few years back. I used to distinguish but not any more. Maybe that helps? Or maybe it's your "loose".


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There's nothing wrong with having sex with girls as a life objective. It seems pretty basic. The problem lies when there is failure: We are not taught how to handle failure, and this is an area where we are not really taught how to succeed. Now that is an area where the culture that surrounds both sexes in the western world doesn't help.

We'd have less misogyny if we could talk about sex more openly. This is a case where maybe the normalization of homosexuality will actually help my younger cis-hetero-male brethren.
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Mac Mcleod
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It's not just nerds. And it's not just men.

There are many women who want to marry a rich attractive tall guy with a full head of hair who will take care of them.

And there are many women who want to find a rich guy (scratch the rest) who will have sex with them and take them around the world and at the end they'll cash out with some kind of alimony. We don't complain about a "golddigger culture".

He may have a point-- but freedom means some girls can be golddiggers and some nerds and other rich men who put in the effort to earn the money are going to have unequally attractive and/or much younger than average girlfriends.

The only way we will eliminate this is to eliminate money and power.

---

And now that women are getting power- they are doing the same thing. The rise of the cougar culture. The rise of female sex tourism to partake of young male prostitutes. The rise of gender discrimination by females in positions of power against males. Not because they don't like males- but because they communicate differently and the females are just "more comfortable" giving assignments to females who "understand" what the boss is trying to say.

It's about power and money- not about gender. The only reason it has seemed to be about men in the past was that they had more power and money. That's changing... fast. Many coed colleges have more women than men attending and graduating from them.

Women are not saints. They are no "better" or "worse" than men. Give them power and money and they'll abuse it too.

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Misogyny is word used too much.

Women reduced to incidental roles in Hollywood movies is more about indifference.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
It's about power and money

It has exactly zero to do with money or power. How much power did Rodger have? None and having money was totally incidental. It's not just nerds, no, but Chu is writing about his own social group. The examples are translatable to any social group really. The story is a little different, but the moral is the same. Succeed within the boundaries of your social expectations and you will be provided with women as a reward.
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does he also talk about the kids obsession with class warfare ? He was mad that his mom did not marry into the "1%". Mad that he didn't have money to impress people with. Mad that life was not easy.

This kid was another victim of the lefts continued war on men and war on wealth. He bought into everything the left says and became delusional when it did not work out.

This pussy was reading "the secret" and bought into that nonsense. We should blame Oprah for that type of bull shit.

Another leftist assassin goes postal and the left cant seem to figure out why.

Stay classy my leftist friends, stay classy !
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Mac Mcleod
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damiangerous wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
It's about power and money

It has exactly zero to do with money or power. How much power did Rodger have? None and having money was totally incidental. It's not just nerds, no, but Chu is writing about his own social group. The examples are translatable to any social group really. The story is a little different, but the moral is the same. Succeed within the boundaries of your social expectations and you will be provided with women as a reward.


"Succeed" ... aka acquire "wealth and power"*

The point I *agree* with chu and you and others is that, "you will be provided with another desirable human as a reward" is broken thinking. People with power, wealth, and status don't have a *right* to companionship- it's just a lot easier for them.

But "you will find it easier to have sex or a relationship with another desirable human in proportion to your acquisition of wealth and power as a result" is realistic thinking.

---

* Admittedly also "acquire high status" in your social group doesn't always require wealth and power. But.. females also abuse high status just as effectively as males have historically.
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jeremycobert wrote:
Stay classy my leftist friends, stay classy !


I'll try. I often fail, but it's better to try to be classy and fail than reject it as a standard worthy of respect.
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jeremycobert wrote:
does he also talk about the kids obsession with class warfare ? He was mad that his mom did not marry into the "1%". Mad that he didn't have money to impress people with. Mad that life was not easy.

This kid was another victim of the lefts continued war on men and war on wealth. He bought into everything the left says and became delusional when it did not work out.

This pussy was reading "the secret" and bought into that nonsense. We should blame Oprah for that type of bull shit.

Another leftist assassin goes postal and the left cant seem to figure out why.

Stay classy my leftist friends, stay classy !


Wow. Amazingly different perspective on the same facts.

The problem is not liberal or conservative but that our entertainment industry teaches 95% of the population that they have a real chance of living like the top 5%. We are shown "middle class" families living in a 1.5 million dollar house where all the kids have new cars ("Cosby show").

Kids living normal lives in a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house (or even living really nice lives in a 4 bedroom 3 bath with game room, den, swimming pool in a choice location) feel like failures because "normal" people on TV are living in 1800 sq foot apartments in New York ("Friends") or mansions in nice neighborhoods. No "archie bunker" middle class house for folks today.

Our entertainment industry presents handsome and beautiful people as "ugly"- even to the extent of photo-shopping already attractive people into impossibly attractive appearances. If we had more realistic messaging it would help.

I watch a lot of old TV shows and I can tell you- the messaging about wealth levels and your possibilities was much more realistic back then. Other things were unrealistic (like portrayal of sex and drinking). But there, they were erring in the other direction. People on TV had less sex and drank less than people did in reality.
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Mac, did you even read the same article? It has nothing to do with wealth and power. Everyone knows people with wealth or power can get girls.

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We (male) nerds grow up force-fed this script. Lusting after women “out of our league” was what we did. And those unattainable hot girls would always inevitably reject us because they didn’t understand our intellectual interest in science fiction and comic books and would instead date asshole jocks. This was inevitable, and our only hope was to be unyieldingly persistent until we “earned” a chance with these women by “being there” for them until they saw the error of their ways.
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jeremycobert wrote:


This kid was another victim of the lefts continued war on men and war on wealth. He bought into everything the left says and became delusional when it did not work out.


Oh I see. He was just a victim of misandry.

Stay classy.
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she2 wrote:
Oh I see. He was just a victim of misandry.


No, he was a victim of the left.
things like
1. everyone's a winner !
2. visualize what you want, you dont to work hard for it.
3. fake it til you make it.
4. the world is yours.
5. the deck is stacked against you.
6. live with your parents as long as you can
7. no need to bust your ass at some low paying job, you deserve more.

the Left continues its war on traditional American values and those chickens have come home to roost.

Stay classy my leftist friends, stay classy !
 
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Jeremy in a thread on Misogyny. That's paydirt right there.
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jeremycobert wrote:
she2 wrote:
Oh I see. He was just a victim of misandry.


No, he was a victim of the left.
things like
1. everyone's a winner !
2. visualize what you want, you dont to work hard for it.
3. fake it til you make it.
4. the world is yours.
5. the deck is stacked against you.
6. live with your parents as long as you can
7. no need to bust your ass at some low paying job, you deserve more.

the Left continues its war on traditional American values and those chickens have come home to roost.

Stay classy my leftist friends, stay classy !


And that's the 7 step manual for the left's war on men (to quote you)? I love the way you can't explain this coherently.
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maxo-texas wrote:
It's not just nerds. And it's not just men.

There are many women who want to marry a rich attractive tall guy with a full head of hair who will take care of them.

And there are many women who want to find a rich guy (scratch the rest) who will have sex with them and take them around the world and at the end they'll cash out with some kind of alimony. We don't complain about a "golddigger culture".

He may have a point-- but freedom means some girls can be golddiggers and some nerds and other rich men who put in the effort to earn the money are going to have unequally attractive and/or much younger than average girlfriends.

The only way we will eliminate this is to eliminate money and power.

---

And now that women are getting power- they are doing the same thing. The rise of the cougar culture. The rise of female sex tourism to partake of young male prostitutes. The rise of gender discrimination by females in positions of power against males. Not because they don't like males- but because they communicate differently and the females are just "more comfortable" giving assignments to females who "understand" what the boss is trying to say.

It's about power and money- not about gender. The only reason it has seemed to be about men in the past was that they had more power and money. That's changing... fast. Many coed colleges have more women than men attending and graduating from them.

Women are not saints. They are no "better" or "worse" than men. Give them power and money and they'll abuse it too.



Mac, while you have a point, the wealth and power going to their head narrative has about nothing to do with the OP's article.
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Darilian wrote:

the culture reaffirms the myth that women are akin to trophies to be handed out for hard work, and not people
Darilian


In nature, bucks fight for dominance to claim the local doe, as do sea lions and other examples. Maybe it's not culture that's the problem, but it's instinct that's the problem: That being dominant and successful leads to gaining females in other species. Maybe this crazy forgot that we were human, and we're more than simple animal instincts.

meeple

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Shushnik wrote:
What? The Dickwolves dust up is misogynistic exactly why?

It was a joke about the weirdness of quest dynamics in MMOs and the ethical implications if such structures were applied to reality. Specifically involving the rape of a male captive by wolf creatures with penis appendages for limbs.

Is the misogyny in that there aren't enough women involved in this rape related joke? Do they need more dickwolf attention?

Seriously, what the fuck does that in any way have to do with misogyny or the concept the geek culture utilizes women as trophies? Why even mention it in the slightest?


Whines and runs to corner to hide from dickwolves debate 100,000. Really, guys, don't you ever get tired of this subject?
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Darilian wrote:
Avid watchers of TV (or at least, Talk Soup or whatnot) might have heard of Arthur Chu- Jeopardy champion who wins by trying to find all the Daily Double rather than playing a category one at a time. He's also a big nerd. Duh!

Well, he's written a very good piece for the Daily Beast about the Santa Barbara shootings. In it, he points out the myriad ways that nerd culture from Revenge of the Nerds to "Mario Bros." treat women as something that nerds earn after working harder than jocks- rather than as human beings capable of making a choice. The result is, as he puts it

Quote:
No, not the straw man that all men are constantly plotting rape, but that we live in an entitlement culture where guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled. That in a culture that constantly celebrates the narrative of guys trying hard, overcoming challenges, concocting clever ruses and automatically getting a woman thrown at them as a prize as a result, there will always be some guy who crosses the line into committing a violent crime to get what he “deserves,” or get vengeance for being denied it.


"Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds", by Arthur Chu, The Daily Beast, 5.27.14

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-prince...

The article is definite worth a read, but I think that Chu really makes clear what a lot of people here in RSP have been trying to explain in previous conversations about the Penny Arcade "Dickwolves Saga" and other incidents: That the concept of 'Rape Culture' doesn't mean that every man is a potential rapist, but that the culture reaffirms the myth that women are akin to trophies to be handed out for hard work, and not people. That if a man isn't constantly having sex with 'hot' women, he's a complete loser 'Beta'. That wealth, power, and the like entitles a man to his choice of woman, irregardless of that woman's feelings.

You might agree, you might disagree- but I think that Mr. Chu does a good job of really illustrating what the issue at hand is.

Darilian


Dar, you had an interesting, thought-provoking article...

...and you brought it to RSP, a place so poisoned by Breitbart's fart-wisdom that even you (and those conservative furriners) are retroactive leftists for some reason.

What's wrong with you?
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she2 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
What? The Dickwolves dust up is misogynistic exactly why?

It was a joke about the weirdness of quest dynamics in MMOs and the ethical implications if such structures were applied to reality. Specifically involving the rape of a male captive by wolf creatures with penis appendages for limbs.

Is the misogyny in that there aren't enough women involved in this rape related joke? Do they need more dickwolf attention?

Seriously, what the fuck does that in any way have to do with misogyny or the concept the geek culture utilizes women as trophies? Why even mention it in the slightest?


Whines and runs to corner to hide from dickwolves debate 100,000. Really, guys, don't you ever get tired of this subject?


You just asked if a male dominated forum is tired of talking about dicks.
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Because there appears to be some confusion, let me reiterate my point on what it is I like about this article.

Quote:
I think that Chu really makes clear what a lot of people here in RSP have been trying to explain in previous conversations about the Penny Arcade "Dickwolves Saga" and other incidents: That the concept of 'Rape Culture' doesn't mean that every man is a potential rapist, but that the culture reaffirms the myth that women are akin to trophies to be handed out for hard work, and not people. That if a man isn't constantly having sex with 'hot' women, he's a complete loser 'Beta'. That wealth, power, and the like entitles a man to his choice of woman, irregardless of that woman's feelings.


One might agree with Mr. Chu; one might think he's full of shit. But what I like about the piece is that he explains this particular point about what 'Rape Culture' actually entails. It's not that all men are potential rapists. Rather, that exploiting women is portrayed in many cultural artifacts like the movie Revenge of the Nerds as 'normal' and, indeed, a reward in some circumstances.

Too often in these threads, the discussion revolves around that particular straw man of what 'Rape Culture' actually means. I like Mr. Chu's piece because he gets at the root of what the issue is in terms of a common culture (Nerd Culture) that most of us, as gamers, can easily understand.

My own personal feelings about the nature of 'Rape Culture' and how it 'motivates' individuals to commit acts of violence like the one under discussion are much more......complicated. But until we clear the weeds, as it were, we can't get to that point, because it revolves around a clear understanding of just what the culture we're talking about is actually saying and how it is heard and understood by individuals.

But if everyone still wants to posture that this is a question of evil Feminazis pissing in people's Cheeriohs, Liberalism being the death of all that is good and noble about the human species, or a refight of the Dickwolf saga (when its clear that I'm just referring to it as a time when this discussion has come up before), well go right ahead.

Darilian
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A question for experts on the "Rape Culture":

US films which involve supposedly normal young people often have scenes where "bad" (but non-gangster) males threaten "average" males with violence.

I remember a certain amount of this when I was growing up, and in that (non-US) context it was exactly the same people who used threats of force on women.

Is there really a distinct "rape culture" in the US, or is it a (significant) part of something broader?
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Hmmm.

My understanding of the rape culture concept was more that it was the actions of the surrounding society to:

- deny or downplay the seriousness,
- rally around the perpetrator (who is of course a great person, and wonderful member of X, placing their ability to, for example, move a ball from A to B above the well-being of a fellow human),
- blame the victim, both explicitly and through more insidious methods,
- and discourage reporting and prosecution.

All of which combines to enable the rapists and, essentially, continue the way of thinking that it fosters and protects (and thus we get the term "rape culture").

Perhaps this is (part of) why those threads explode - people are thinking of very different meanings for the same phrase.

As to Chu's ideas - well, I can certainly see how the noxious culture (alpha male, game, whatever you want to label it) combines with the above, plus the general objectification of people and perverse concepts of "success". Very complementary, unfortunately.
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