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Subject: So how do these tournament-winning Tennin Institute decks work? rss

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Ben Finkel
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According to Stimhack's tournament list, Tennin's been winning quite a few tournaments recently, including 3 Regionals. I don't really see what makes the deck tick - as a fast-advance deck, what makes it stronger than SanSans and AstroScripts? Is there some other threat or strength of the Jinteki cards that kicks it up?
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Captain Frisk
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Azeltir wrote:
According to Stimhack's tournament list, Tennin's been winning quite a few tournaments recently, including 3 Regionals. I don't really see what makes the deck tick - as a fast-advance deck, what makes it stronger than SanSans and AstroScripts? Is there some other threat or strength of the Jinteki cards that kicks it up?


I'm not 100% sure - but I'll take my stab at how they work:

1. Only ice HQ and R&D (exception: sneakdoor / noise / mill?)
2. Keep building the towers
3. Put Caprice in the servers so that nobody ever wants to run them
4. Score all agendas out of hand via trick of light - recursed with archived memories / reclamation order.
5. If necessary - feed your medical breakthrough to your opponent to enable the other 2 to be scored from hand.

I'm surprised that it works because it sounds slow to me (what if you don't get your tricks of light - there is a reason why fast advance decks run Biotic + SanSan), but I have no play experience against it.
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Derrick Billings
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What Frisk said is broadly true; I lost to the eventual tournament winner in Round 2 of the Chicago (Niles) regional.

What makes it strong is that it's extremely difficult to prevent. SanSan City Grid has to be installed and rezzed, which means it's vulnerable to being trashed or economic pressure. Astroscript has to be scored, and sometimes getting the first one out before the runner plucks it for their own is a challenge.

With Tennin, they can put those tokens away for safekeeping, and they don't need any money, any particular card to turn it on. You don't run? Thanks for the token, I'm just going to save that for later. They can put it on unrezzed ice and just never rez it, keeping it safe from Parasites. They can advance Runner cards that the runner does not want to trash (consoles are good.) Once they get two of them on the board, it will be there for as long as it takes for them to draw into a Trick of Light.

The deck I played used Archived Memories and Reclamation Order, so one Trick of Light did a lot of work, all he had to do was draw into his agendas. I had a hard time finding my Killer so I had real issues making dummy runs just to keep him off his tokens. Once he had the tokens out and another Trick of Light in hand, I had to treat it as though there were two scored Astroscripts at one point because he had four tokens just waiting for an agenda draw.
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Andrew Keddie
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My own version hasn't won any tournaments and is still in testing; but it seems reasonably solid core. From what I can tell it's kind of unconventional, so I'll outline how it works:

-Lots of EtR and program destruction
-Mushin No Shin - Aggressive Secretary or GRNDL Refinery are great targets (even if a secretary gets exposed, it's not a server the runner wants to go after - just makes a great place to store your Tennin Tokens (tm) until you can Trick them.
-UNORTHODOX PREDICTIONS. So good I had to put it in all-caps. When you're running loads of rig-trashing, it's just brilliant to score one and yell SENTRY! As a side note, it makes great Archer food (along with Clone Retirement).
-Your EtR ICE ideally wants to cost a fair bit to break, so even if the Runner manages to avoid losing breakers, you can still force them not to be able to run every turn.

The other builds I've seen though seem to be more about attrition:

-Hit the runner with nasty things like Komainu, which forces them to spend a turn rebuilding their hand (when they can't run).
-Fill your Archives with unpleasantness (Shock!, Shi Kyu) to make in unappealing.
-Recur ToL as often as possible and score from hand (look ma, no remotes!)
-Make your HQ and R&D cost ungodly amounts to break into (as above, a poor runner cannot get into your servers cheaply probably can't do it every turn)
 
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Manuel Galdames
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In my experience, after building my own tax iteration of Tennin...


It is indeed a Fast Advance deck, but compared to NBN needing SanSan or HB needing Biotics (or a combination of both of these cards), you're rocking Trick of Lights. It is a bit cheaper, but A LOT slower, since you depend on the runner not making succesful runs. But you cannot touch the engine either, as you cannot trash the Tricks without certain Anarch cards.

Due to the way it operates and the effectiveness of Security Testing, I've also won a lot of games where I simply do not build remotes. Maybe a temporary Jackson, a Medical Breakthrough bait or ShiKyu drop, but aside from that, your resources go to the mid-game token battery that your ID provides.

Fear (or rather respect) from Jinteki's flatlining options tend to give you the necessary edge to pull through.


For instance, last time I ran Tennin against your average hyperaggressive criminal. I got siphoned 5 times and he had 5 points after turn 11 or so. After that, the tax starts kicking in and you're starting to grab free advance tokens. If he's at matchpoint, there's a good chance that a Philotic Trick of Light score might kill him, unless he's packing a Deus X. If not, about 75% of your agendas can be fast advanced. Nisei and ShiKyu really work wonders.

I still haven't found a reliable way of accelerating this process though. You can play it more rush-y, foregoing bigger ICE for more early game ETR, but it's a hit-and-miss play style that just doesn't click for me.
 
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Andrew Swanson
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I think the gist is that Jinteki fast advance may not be quite as quick or as focused as NBN but can look give a lot of different threats and looks when compared with NBN. NBN can pretty much only go fast and score stuff from hand while Jinteki can do that OR threaten traps OR threaten net damage. Runners are more scared of Jinteki, especially after Honor & Profit.
 
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Azeltir wrote:
According to Stimhack's tournament list, Tennin's been winning quite a few tournaments recently, including 3 Regionals. I don't really see what makes the deck tick - as a fast-advance deck, what makes it stronger than SanSans and AstroScripts? Is there some other threat or strength of the Jinteki cards that kicks it up?


TOL is a beast because it allows you to play a different fast advance. You bank your credits as advancements and get them back later when you need them. Unlike SanSan/Biotics you only need 2 credits to score an agenda out of hand at the point you draw the agenda.

Archived memories can be all the difference in making sure you can advance enough agendas.

The ice mixes are taxing and effective at keeping the runner out for a period of time when stacked on centrals.

The basic principal is Ice HQ & R&D while throwing traps into archives. If the runner hits archives they take a bunch of net damage. If the runner hits centrals they need breakers. If the runner runs Jackson, you trash so that the run can't be successful.

You net tokens pretty easily and draw deeply to fill archives with traps. You'll find stuff pretty easily.

A fast deck with medium & parasite would probably really hurt this sort of deck, but that sort of deck doesn't do well against glacier, so what can you do?
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Manuel Galdames
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Oh, something else I've found with Tennin, compared to NBN or HB Fast Advance, is that your lategame presence is stronger than NBN and on par with HB.

NBN FA without SanSans depend on the Astro. If you steal them or he simply drew into and scored the other 8 agendas in his deck, then you can dismantle the corp.

But lategame with Tennin is different. It doesn't really matter what your opponent has stolen. In fact, if he stole your Medical Breakthroughs, even better. All you need is 6 turns without a succesful run and you can score basically anything in the deck with the tricks.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
According to Stimhack's tournament list, Tennin's been winning quite a few tournaments recently, including 3 Regionals. I don't really see what makes the deck tick - as a fast-advance deck, what makes it stronger than SanSans and AstroScripts? Is there some other threat or strength of the Jinteki cards that kicks it up?


I'm not 100% sure - but I'll take my stab at how they work:

1. Only ice HQ and R&D (exception: sneakdoor / noise / mill?)
2. Keep building the towers
3. Put Caprice in the servers so that nobody ever wants to run them
4. Score all agendas out of hand via trick of light - recursed with archived memories / reclamation order.
5. If necessary - feed your medical breakthrough to your opponent to enable the other 2 to be scored from hand.

I'm surprised that it works because it sounds slow to me (what if you don't get your tricks of light - there is a reason why fast advance decks run Biotic + SanSan), but I have no play experience against it.


My plans for a Tennin Build were based off of The Great Wall of Weyland, which uses Trick of Light to Never Advance, but I'm not seeing Snare! or Edge of World to bait the Runner like you would expect in a Never Advance deck.
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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One more good thing is that early in the game, when the runner still sets up and it's likely he will not have a successful run (because you already locked R&D and HQ), you can put a 4/2 agenda into a remote, leave it unadvanced (so that the runner doesn't want to go and run it fearing it's a Snare!) and hopefully score next turn. Your first Medical Breakthrough is great for this purpose, if it gets stolen it's not a big problem and if you manage to score it without using any fast advance tricks, it's the best thing ever.

IMO Tennin is the fixed Because We Built It. It's in better faction (more FA agendas available, 3 Ice Wall and 3 Commercialization is only 6 influence while 3 Trick of Light is 9) and it's ability works better (you don't need to advance ice each turn anyway, but it's great that you can advance any ice (or any other card when you need it) and not having to spend a click on it helps a lot).
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Christopher MacLeod
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
My own version hasn't won any tournaments and is still in testing; but it seems reasonably solid core. From what I can tell it's kind of unconventional, so I'll outline how it works:

-Lots of EtR and program destruction
-Mushin No Shin - Aggressive Secretary or GRNDL Refinery are great targets (even if a secretary gets exposed, it's not a server the runner wants to go after - just makes a great place to store your Tennin Tokens (tm) until you can Trick them.
-UNORTHODOX PREDICTIONS. So good I had to put it in all-caps. When you're running loads of rig-trashing, it's just brilliant to score one and yell SENTRY! As a side note, it makes great Archer food (along with Clone Retirement).
-Your EtR ICE ideally wants to cost a fair bit to break, so even if the Runner manages to avoid losing breakers, you can still force them not to be able to run every turn.


Wow! I'd love to test out this list, it sounds like a great direction to go in.

I've played the no-remote version to local success but it's pretty non-interactive - your build seems vastly more entertaining to play.
 
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Magnus Benzein
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Azeltir wrote:
According to Stimhack's tournament list, Tennin's been winning quite a few tournaments recently, including 3 Regionals. I don't really see what makes the deck tick - as a fast-advance deck, what makes it stronger than SanSans and AstroScripts? Is there some other threat or strength of the Jinteki cards that kicks it up?


While I haven't played that many strong players with Tennin, I assume they are still riding on the "fear" from the old Jinteki decks. If you as a runner allow that fear to prevent you from running so they can rack up tokens, you will get into trouble quickly. Like always it's very hard to get traps, fast-advance, economy and good ICE into a deck so you usually have to cut something and most Tennin lists I've seen cut traps.

What I find strange is that they can keep a good record against Andy, she riggs up early and should be able to pretty much deny advancement tokens (especially if she packs Security Testing to force ICE on archives).

 
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Christopher MacLeod
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Ilza wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
According to Stimhack's tournament list, Tennin's been winning quite a few tournaments recently, including 3 Regionals. I don't really see what makes the deck tick - as a fast-advance deck, what makes it stronger than SanSans and AstroScripts? Is there some other threat or strength of the Jinteki cards that kicks it up?


While I haven't played that many strong players with Tennin, I assume they are still riding on the "fear" from the old Jinteki decks. If you as a runner allow that fear to prevent you from running so they can rack up tokens, you will get into trouble quickly. Like always it's very hard to get traps, fast-advance, economy and good ICE into a deck so you usually have to cut something and most Tennin lists I've seen cut traps.

What I find strange is that they can keep a good record against Andy, she riggs up early and should be able to pretty much deny advancement tokens (especially if she packs Security Testing to force ICE on archives).



Denying advancement tokens is fine except Runner still burns actions doing so. If I have a Pup on Archives and you're Security Testing it every turn with a Desperado out, you're basically clicking for a credit which is not what Andy normally wants to do.

If it's Eli on Archives then it's pretty marginal to run even if you add a Datasucker to that.

This can add up to the point where Andy normally rigs up fast, but spent so many actions denying Tennin that her development is a full turn or more behind.

 
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Killer Shrike
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hsiale wrote:
One more good thing is that early in the game, when the runner still sets up and it's likely he will not have a successful run (because you already locked R&D and HQ), you can put a 4/2 agenda into a remote, leave it unadvanced (so that the runner doesn't want to go and run it fearing it's a Snare!) and hopefully score next turn. Your first Medical Breakthrough is great for this purpose, if it gets stolen it's not a big problem and if you manage to score it without using any fast advance tricks, it's the best thing ever.

IMO Tennin is the fixed Because We Built It. It's in better faction (more FA agendas available, 3 Ice Wall and 3 Commercialization is only 6 influence while 3 Trick of Light is 9) and it's ability works better (you don't need to advance ice each turn anyway, but it's great that you can advance any ice (or any other card when you need it) and not having to spend a click on it helps a lot).


I play both a Great Wall of Weyland w/ BWBI variant, and also a shiny new Tennin deck that I've been trying different variations on.

While I've got a lot more games of the GWoW than Tennin, I think your comment is a fair assessment.

However, while I pull in 3 Ice Wall and 2 Shipment from Kaguya to Tennin, I don't really feel the need to pull in Commercialization as I'm not looking to pile on a bunch of counters on any one thing in Tennin but rather spreading them around to avoid a single point of failure.

Also, Jinteki has so many ways to make money now that the Commercialization payday just isn't as attractive to me in this context. I've run Mushin and Grndl Refinery in each variant of my Tennin deck so far and it results in a veritable bonanza of cash.

Because I run Mushin and some participating tricks, I do run a couple of remotes and just rely on taxing ice and the threat of traps to scare the runner off them. I also bring in a couple of Matrix Analyzers to add to the token fun, which can demoralize the runner as part of the benefit of running against Tennin is to deny me a token...which I can get anyway if there's a matrix analyzer on the server they want to run. I'll often stick one 1 front of R&D and 1 on a scoring server if I draw into both.

The Tennin deck variations have done surprisingly well in most match ups. It is kind of a plodding deck that just kind of grinds out wins without much flare, but it is stable and reliable as it just needs ToL and time to work.

The thing I really like about Tennin though is its ability to lure the runner into making bad choices. A big problem I've run into w/ other Jinteki decks is when the runner is just patient / cautious and makes safe runs. As a Jinteki player there is nothing I hate more than a runner just sitting back and clicking Magnum Opus 4 times to get a bank or fill up their hand for a big run in the next turn. Until I'm at match point, they have little compelling reason to succumb to my probably-a-trap lures and if they can R&D lock me or pillage my hand with impunity I might never get to match point.

Tennin on the other hand punishes what is otherwise a smart play for the runner and encourages recklessness. Many players seem to feel impelled to run to deny the ability and stave off the ToL fodder.

Similar to the core identity and replicating perfection, this is a kind of tax though in a more roundabout way...it taxes cautious play. If the runner clicks to make a pointless run just to deny me the identity ability, well...I'm ok with that trade. Click tax. If the don't, well...I'm ok with that too, I pump an ice wall or GRNDL or bank a token somewhere for later ToL use.

I'm playing both Tennin and Medtech decks currently and of the two, the Tennin deck just feels a lot more inevitable...as long as I can fend off R&D lock, time is on my side. The Medtech deck on the other hand is more fun and aggravating for the runner to play against but, for me at least, has been streaky...if I can't stick a Shi.Kyu on the runner its an even race, and despite there only being 6 agenda cards in the deck (6 3pointers), it seems like every game I end up with 2 or more in hand and needing Jackson Howard to save me from agenda flood. Just yesterday I played a game against a really aggressive Express deck that got in to my hand on a Leg Work...I was holding 5 cards, which happened to be the remaining 5 agendas in the deck (the 6th one he had scored early). Luckily Ash saved me and I was able to draw into Jackson Howard to overdraw and get rid of the excess baggage (I eventually dug out the win with 3 cards remaining in R&D, but that's another story). Now that's edge case, but I've not had anything like that happen when piloting the Tennin deck...on the contrary I'm usually waiting to draw an agenda so I can score it out of hand.
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cassidy zimmerman
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Also not often noted but it's always included in these Tennin decks: Jinteki now have Shi Kyu and Philotic, which provide an additional win condition even if the Runner is ahead.

If a Philotic can be scored out of hand with a Trick of Light, and if the runner has had a lot of success and especially if they have a Shi-Kyu against them, it can flat out kill a runner. It's probably the only situation that I can think of that kills the runner for being ahead.
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Selverin
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I won regionals as Tennin last weekend. Tennin is slow fast advance. NBN can win very fast but if not you dont have ice to defend yourself.

Tennin is making huge taxation ended with caprice on HQ/R&D. Defending only 2 servers means that you always have enough ice to keep runner spending a lot of credits for access.

After first few turns runner can't run each turn and tokens start gathering. And with weyland advancable ice each turn without run means more expensive future runs. Even awful Tyrant in tennin is great, it's best ice vs criminals because ff can't bypass it easily. I had plenty of games with about 20 counters on Ice Wall/Tyrant. And operation economy in jinteki is very strong. Commercialisation costs 1 inf and gives enormous economy boost when i have many counters on ice. With that it's not wasted turn when i'm advancing ice for clicks.

And after adding 1 Biotic Labor there is option to score from hand Future Perfect (not so rare). Tennin is now probably as strong as Replication but in other way.
 
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Marty Kay
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Grimwalker wrote:

With Tennin, they can put those tokens away for safekeeping, and they don't need any money, any particular card to turn it on. You don't run? Thanks for the token, I'm just going to save that for later. They can put it on unrezzed ice and just never rez it, keeping it safe from Parasites. They can advance Runner cards that the runner does not want to trash (consoles are good.) Once they get two of them on the board, it will be there for as long as it takes for them to draw into a Trick of Light.


I was confused at this (I'm pretty new to the game), but I thought that you can only advance agendas and those cards that say they can be advanced.
the rulebook wrote:
Agendas can always be advanced while
installed. Cards other than agendas can only be advanced if
their text box allows it.

But then, Tennin Institute says "place 1 advancement token on a card", not "advance a card" so I see how this works now.

I'm still confused about the whole "score agendas out of your hand" bit. Or is that shorthand for "install card, and advance it enough to score it in one turn"?
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j n
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martykay wrote:
I'm still confused about the whole "score agendas out of your hand" bit. Or is that shorthand for "install card, and advance it enough to score it in one turn"?


Exactly that. Also called "fast advance".
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Steven Tu
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I took my Tenin FA to our regional win, it was arguably stronger than my Andy nonsuckerspam runner side

To summarise, Tennin's FA is strong because:

1. Zero need for remote, all the ice goes on centrals, heck, just hq and R&D.
2. Cheap gear check delays runner progress
3. Damn cheap to FA. Very important. 2 creds to get agenda out of hand is no joke. After a Siphon I can score with one turn gap. Most crims who knew what they were doing had to siphon me at 2/3 creds even if at a loss.
4. Giant ice wall is great just about anywhere.
5. I ran 3 reclamation orders, no archived mem, better choice for potential disasters at the cost of some speed.
6. Archive defense is totally not needed unless sneakdoor and/or security testing lands.

Each time Tennin's triggers it's worth 1 cred and 1 click. That's really significant!
 
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Unmeel Banerjea
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I actually thought this was an interactive deck at first. Goddamit.
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Henri Harju
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FieryBalrog wrote:
I actually thought this was an interactive deck at first. Goddamit.
Most tournament viable corp decks at the moment aren't particularly interactive.. Truly, the metagame currently sucks.
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William Turner
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Here's my list:

http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/5757/tennin-lightning-1st...

I've copied over one of my responses that goes over how I generally pilot the deck.

mplain
Do you ever make a remote? Or do you play shellgame? Seems hard to fast-advance a 5/3.

Fjord
Kranse told me he just has Jackson remotes. I can understand where he's coming from and actually it improved my play but I ended up playing it a bit differently. Here's the usual pattern:

1) Get advancement tokens from the first turns. Ice centrals, a rush deck might risk quickly trying to score but that would be a bad move. The free advancement is more important. Also if you try to score early you'll be broke and can just lose the game.

2) Put out an Agenda, with two ice, standard Weyland move. Some combination that'll take two cards to get through. Inazuma+Ice Wall is a particularly good one. Might have to go broke keeping them out but you should be able to score it.

3) By the time you've recharged they've probably figured out your remote. Use the time to make R&D taxing with Komainu, Grim, Inazuma, Eli 1.0. Trick of Light out the next agenda.

4) At some point you've probably scored a Clone Retirement and are now at 5 agenda points. The remote comes back into play as they're forced to run everything. You can drag them through a couple ice into a Shock, Caprice, even an agenda if it'll open a scoring window.

5) If the remote runs didn't open a scoring window it at least kept them busy and you can set up for your last Trick of Light. Sometimes I needed to advance an Ice Wall manually here which shows you how important those early counters can be. The third Medical Breakthrough is also a possibility at this point.

Of course at any point one of the program destruction cards can fire off and kick you back to 2) for an easy score.

The 5/3 has a couple roles and I managed to pull them both off in the tournament. In one game it dodged a steal from R&D, it is amazing for this, I think better than NAPD. It's not just that they only have a 1/3 chance to steal, they also don't even get to play the game unless they have two credits left. In this case the runner had no credits left after breaking a Grim so I simply had to pay 1. Even better he ran my HQ half a dozen times trying to find it for another chance but I had discarded it immediately with a Jackson ready to go. In another game I demolished Andromeda's rig. Rototurret took out Faerie, then Shock sniped Corroder from hand, Mimic's Datasucker went down to 2 counters letting an Archer crush the rest of the rig. Didn't mind going back to 4 points because I had The Future Perfect which I safely scored behind Inazuma/Icewall. Also, although you can't fast advance it, Trick of Light can help disguise it. With two Trick of Light you wouldn't even need to advance.
 
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Anton R.
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So guys do you consider splashing explotary romps into your andromedas?
 
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Mike Romeo
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Or singularity :P
 
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Patrick Jamet
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Tuism wrote:
3. Damn cheap to FA. Very important. 2 creds to get agenda out of hand is no joke. After a Siphon I can score with one turn gap. Most crims who knew what they were doing had to siphon me at 2/3 creds even if at a loss.

It's vain. Thanks to Subliminal Messaging (in hand)* you can even score a 3/2 from hand with a Trick of Light with 0 (no, 1) credit at the start of your turn. shake

*: Or Shipment from Kaguya but is costs influence.
 
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