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Subject: 4- and 6-player options rss

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Dan
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I’m trying to look at all of the available options I have for 4- or 6-player games, not including using a Cylon Leader (in other words, if nobody chooses CL, or with CL in a 5- or 7-player game). I also have some questions regarding how they work, and since these are all official options (even if one is an official “variant”), I figured I’d post them heer. Here’s what I see so far…

Question #1: Using the various expansions, do I get a choice of what variant to use, or is it pretty much “if using Pegasus, use Sympathetic Cylon, or if using Daybreak, use Mutineer, unless you use the no-sympathizer variant”?

Base Game

Option #1: Official Sympathizer Rules

From my understanding, this version has the sympathizer be sent to the brig (but otherwise treated as YANAC) if one dial is in the red, or YAAC card if all dials are in the blue (except you cannot activate the Cylon Fleet or use Super Crisis cards). Essentially, you’re a neutered player.

The biggest drawback I see here is that if the humans do to well before the sleeper phase, they will lose, based on the fact that 100% of the games on PBF (when I look at the stats thread) that have a cylon sympathizer end in cylon victory.

Option #2: Official Non-Sympathizer Variant

This replaces the Sympathizer card with one YANAC card, and has the following rules: start with -2 population and -1 food/morale, and revealed Cylon players may draw 3 skill cards instead of 2. This seems like a much simpler solution, which in and of itself is a good thing when the game is already this complex.

Question #2: It says that Boomer is not an available choice for 6-player no-sympathizer variant. Is this primarily related to component limitations? In other words, is she a viable option with expansions (or with treating the Sympathizer card as a YANAC card)?

Pegasus

Pegasus gives the sympathetic cylon card. This one basically turns you into a cylon leader, with your own agenda instead of being on the cylon team. On the one hand, this gives humans a chance, but the problem is that: chance. The agenda may still be harmful to humans, which would mean that the effect the sympathetic cylon has on game balance is random and unknown.

Question #3: Using the Pegasus agendas, what deck does the sympathetic cylon draw the agenda card from?

Question #4: If using sympathetic cylon with Daybreak, do you draw an agenda card or do you draw daybreak motives cards?


Exodus

From my understanding, no variant here. They went directly after the humans.

Daybreak

Instead of someone helping the cylons, daybreak gives you the mutineer. I don’t have much experience with the mutiny cards (I’ve only played base game with others), so I don’t have a big understanding of how the mutineer affects gameplay.

Question #5: How does the mutineer affect the gameplay and the game balance?

---

Thanks for reading that hopefully-well-formatted wall of text. To sum up my questions:
1. If there are multiple choices available via different expansions, am I required to choose the latest expansion (or “no-symp variant”), or are they optional?
2. With extra YANAC from expansions, is Boomer available in the no-symp variant on 6-player?
3. Using Pegasus agendas, which deck does the Sympathetic Cylon draw a card from? I’m assuming this is going to be a caveated answer that it depends on number of players and/r whether a cylon leader is present.
4. If you are using Daybreak motives for the Cylon Leader (or even if Daybreak is on the table with no CL), do you use agendas or motives for sympathetic cylon?
5. How does the mutineer affect gameplay balance.
6. Is my understanding of the various options available correct? Did I miss any options?

Edit: Struck through answered questions.
 
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Cesar Puga
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Question 2:
Exactly that. It's only a matter of component limitations. Boomer can be used in the no-symp variant.

An Specialist will soon sort out your other questions.
 
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Dan
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Awesome, 1 down, 5 to go! Striking through the answered question(s) so people don't have to duplicate work
 
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Kwijiboe
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Question 1:

The Sympathizer tried to balance the game around the resources. Long story short: it didn't work.

I don't believe Daybreak allows for the option of Non-Sympathizer Variant. You can still use it, but I believe Daybreak's added difficulty level makes the additional loss of starting resources that much more punishing.

Additionally, note that the Mutineer always stays with the humans: it will always be a pain in their side. As the game goes longer, it's increasingly easy to brig humans with the use of Treachery cards. Note that the Human Fleet action really shines (for once) in Daybreak: a scout action and drawing 2 treachery on top of your skill draw is incredible. This encourages revealed cylons to win the game through skill check chicanery.

Question #2:

FFG has stated it was entirely due to component limitations.

Sympathetic Cylon is a fix for the unlucky soul that would have drawn the Sympathizer card. It increases that player's enjoyment but can have an effect on gameplay.

Question #3: The Sympathetic must draw 1 card from Pegasus' Sympathetic Agenda deck. S/He will never draw from the Hostile deck.

Question #4: The Daybreak Rules explicitly instruct you to permanently stow the Sympathetic Cylon card (along with Pegasus Treachery and Agendas) and not use it with the Daybreak expansion.

EDIT: A Cylon Leader and Sympathetic Cylon/Sympathizer are never allowed in the same game. See Pegasus' Variant Rules section.

The Mutineer changes gameplay in that the title will always remain with the humans. Through treachery, Crises, and other game effects: humans will have mutiny cards in their hands. Both unrevealed and revealed cylons can force Mutiny onto the crew which leads to briggings.

The Mutineer turns one player into a half human: many of his actions will be eaten by dealing with mutiny. Some people comment that this player can happily play from the brig, but his usefulness will be hurt because he is limited to one skill card into skill checks. In my opinion, the Mutineer does a decent job of balancing the game. (Verdict is still out on its effects: haven't gotten enough games in). However, NuZarek can determine the outcome of the game whether he is human or cylon because he is given too much control over the Mutiny deck.

Question #6: I don't believe you missed anything. However, take a closer look at the subtle changes. Daybreak (and the mutineer) hurt the humans by brigging them which has devestating effects on the humans' efficiency.
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Dan
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#1. So, from what I understand, if using daybreak you have to use the mutineer, but otherwise you get a choice of which variant to use?

#3: Just to clarify, the sympathetic agenda deck is the "5" deck, and the hostile is the "4/6" deck?

#4: Ah, I missed that particular rule. It seems to me that Daybreak tries to redo a lot of Pegasus.

#6: Are there any (good) unofficial variants to handle 4 or 6 players?
 
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Kwijiboe
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#1 - The Daybreak Rulebook makes no mention of the No Sympathizer Variant. In addition, it includes a very clear breakdown of which cards to include depending on the characters/expansions you have chosen to play with.

See page 7 of the Daybreak rulebook here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Battlestar_Gal...

EDIT FOR CLARITY: You usually have the choice to play with either the Mutineer or the Cylon Leader.

#3 - The sympathetic deck is actually the 4/6 deck. Also, note that it has Caprica 6 on it, whereas the Hostile deck has a Centurion's face on it. Easier to remember that way.

#4 - Daybreak truly makes the Pegasus expansion superfluous.

#6 - No. There are, at least to my knowledge, no unnofficial variants used by anyone on these forums.

I do my best to play with 5, but when I play with 6 I play with the Mutineer. Sometimes people volunteer to play as the Cylon Leader, but the Cylon Leader is against my preferences. I really enjoy the game best when I suspect everyone at the table of being a Cylon.

Sure, you have to find out what the Cylon Leader's motive's are, but it's easier to just target him for Brig/Sickbay choices and negatively impact the effect the Cylon Leader player can have on the game.
 
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skribs15 wrote:


Daybreak

Instead of someone helping the cylons, daybreak gives you the mutineer. I don’t have much experience with the mutiny cards (I’ve only played base game with others), so I don’t have a big understanding of how the mutineer affects gameplay.

Question #5: How does the mutineer affect the gameplay and the game balance?



I only played with mutineer once, so take my response with a grain of salt. But a mutineer has to draw mutineer cards more frequently than other players, forcing him to play more mutineer cards. Mutiny cards tend to be bad for humans, so it balances the humans and cylons by forcing the humans to play certain unfortunate cards. I liked it the one time I played, but most of the people I usually play with hate mutineer and refuse to play it. (I don't think any of them have actually played with the mutineer, they just heard it sucks and therefore believe it)

skribs15 wrote:
#1. So, from what I understand, if using daybreak you have to use the mutineer, but otherwise you get a choice of which variant to use?



If you use daybreak you don't have to use the mutineer, but you do have to use the mutiny cards.
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Kwijiboe
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I think people just don't know how to effectively manage mutiny.

Believe it or not, the President player (or anyone on Colonial one) can assist the Mutineer with managing mutiny by allowing the mutineer to discard down to 1 Mutiny Card through use of the new Press Room location. If the Press Room isn't used to manage mutiny, the Mutineer can play one his Mutiny cards instead: but the Mutiny cards in his hands could carry devestating effects.

I think people dislike mutiny because they forget they had a mutiny card until they are dealt another and are subsequently sent to the brig.

Simply put, they dislike it just because they're not used to it.

In my opinion, the Mutineer is an elegant fix to the Sympathizer problems of the past. People dislike it because it occasionally forces them to waste an action: but this is the entire point. It balances the game by wasting human actions.
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Dan
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I think my specific questions are answered, but I'd like to hear more about the mutineer and any other possible variants, because I know less about that.

The tip about Caprica 6 vs. Centurions is a good one, thanks.
 
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Invasion81 wrote:
Mutiny cards tend to be bad for humans, so it balances the humans and cylons by forcing the humans to play certain unfortunate cards.


I would disagree with this. I think most Mutiny cards are good for humans and the drawbacks are often avoidable or just not that bad and playing them is often worth it. I think that's the biggest problem with them personally - they are too good. They should hurt a little more.
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Kwijiboe
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Mutiny cards are for the most part good, but the most damaging thing about them is the "Good, but not right now" nature of the cards.

Most players will tell themselves, "Oh, wow, this Mutiny card is good."

However, they'll opt to hold onto it because the timing would be better OR there is a more pressing issue that leads them to forgoing playing the Mutiny card and XOing another player, etc.

This is the important part. Because that is when they are dealt an additional card and are sent to the brig.

Mutiny is intended to put humans in the brig when there is a high value placed on their actions. Humans will forgo playing Mutiny when they are distracted by other things: consequently, they are easier to brig through the use of treachery.

If Mutiny had more teeth, the game would be over far too quickly. There are however, some truly powerful mutiny cards in that deck: just enough to change the tide if the wrong card is put into the wrong hands.

skribs15 wrote:
I think my specific questions are answered, but I'd like to hear more about the mutineer and any other possible variants, because I know less about that.


What are you looking for as far as variants? More specifically, what do you perceive as problems that need changing?
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Cameron McKenzie
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I'm fine with Mutiny in general - it doesn't have to be a bad thing all the time,

But, I don't think the Mutineer is balanced well - it's rarely more than a minor inconvenience to the humans. They are still at a significant advantage with their higher count.

Daybreak Cylon Leaders are the best and most balanced solution to 4 and 6 player games, in my opinion.
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Cameron McKenzie
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You can kind of think of assigning a "score" to the game setup like this:

+1 for each player
-2 for each cylon card
-1 for each cylon leader, mutineer, sympathizer, or sympathetic cylon leader
-1 for using the no sympathizer variant

Using any officially supported setup will give a final score of 1, so consider this a baseline if you want to combine variants in different ways (like using multiple cylon leaders or something). If you have a combination that gives 0 or 2, it's going to favor one side. Any further out and you are probably destroying the balance completely.

There are other things to consider, like Pegasus helping the humans or Conflicted Loyalties harming them, but the official rules don't take these into account during setup, so this scoring system doesn't try to either.
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Kwijiboe
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I think Mutineer works best for 4, but less so for 6. I a agree that Cylon Leaders are the best answer for balancing: but, I find games with Cylon leaders less interesting.

In any case, it really does come down to all of the other components and characters you decide to include in your game.
 
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Dan
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Quote:
What are you looking for as far as variants? More specifically, what do you perceive as problems that need changing?


I'm just curious to see what others have thought up.

As to the scoring system...there are 2 problems with that system.
1) The balance is going to be different using Sympathizer (incredibly harsh for humans) and Mutineer (which people are saying ranges from balanced to very Human-friendly). Assigning all of those to "-1" means you have a very normalized sense of balance.
2) How do you assign a number to an additional variant?

I think what the variant would need to do, which is essentially what I think most of these try to do, is make the game 2.5H-1.5C or 3.5H-2.5C. That sort of balances out the same as the 2H-1C or 3H-2C of the 3- and 5-player games. With those breakdowns, you're looking at the following:

3-player: 66.7% Human
4-player: 62.5%
5-Player: 60%
6-Player: 58.3%

Compare that with what you have with 4-player or 6-player going with NS:
4-Player: 75%
6-Player: 66.7%

Or if you go the other way and go pro-cylon, it's 50% each, which is incredibly harsh to the Humans. As you can see, the 6-player with a 4-2 split is actually the same balance as 3-player with 2-1 split; however, you are going to be hurting far more with only 2 skill sets going into checks than 4.

I think trying to make it around 60% Cylon is the most balanced. However, making it 50% for Game 1 and 75% for Game 2 isn't the answer, and I think both the Sympathizer and Sympathetic Cylon (and Cylon Leaders) pretty much do this.

The No Symp rule essentially drops resources by 10-16.7%, which if you factor it into my math above, means in a 4P game you have 58-65%, and in a 6P game you have 50-57%, which makes it ideally balanced for Humans and at least better than the low range for a pro-cylon game.

I can't figure out how to factor in the mutineer.

Essentially, I think the question is how to get a consistent neutral person.
 
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It has been said that the game itself is a cylon player, so you get easier math by adding a dummy cylon into the equations.

Mutineer tries to create a half-human player by depriving an action each time he/she has a jump symbol. If you don't use your action by performing the action on the Mutiny card, you end up in the brig, thus removing the possibility of jump symbol. But the Mutiny cards themselves have a positive side for the cost, so playing them is not a null action. Also, if the Mutineer appears only at sleeper, you are having only a 0.75 x human instead of the 0.5 x that was the goal.

I think the Cylon Leader Motives are a success. First of all, you are a Cylon Leader from the beginning, and by choice, so there is not the swingyness of when Mutineer appears (or if appears at all with the extra loyalty card of Exodus). Secondly, Cylon Leader has to walk the centerline to be able to fulfill all but one of their motives: if you want humans to win, you have to deplete the resources, giving cylons a chance, and if you want the cylons to win, you have to protect resources, giving humans a chance. And thirdly, playing cylon leader needs very different approach than playing either human or cylon, and the huge number of Motive combinations and CL powers/handicaps (not to mention how the human/cylon game is always different) give a lot of variety. I like a lot playing Cylon Leader with Motives, to me it is very interesting.
 
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skribs15 wrote:
Essentially, I think the question is how to get a consistent neutral person.


There simply is no way except for the use of a Cylon Leader. They're about as close as you can get to having a neutral player.

However, inexperienced Cylon Leaders can muck it up by being either too aggressive or too passive. It's not entierely the game's fault the Cylon Leader strayed from their motives, but sometimes the CL can lose sight of their agendas and swing the pendulum too far to one side.

The Daybreak motives work fairly well: Hostile Agendas have cylons working hard to preserve resources. In other words, you'll have a CL who wants the humans to lose but cares A LOT about preserving food.

Meanwhile, human motives require CLs to bring resources to their brink and then are required protect any more from being lost.

Consequently, when played correctly, Daybreak CLs push resources down to suit their motives. However, you won't know whether they're going to act to preserve that resource later.

Mutineer does its best to allow the fourth human player some amount of player agency but it's imperfect.

Again, if you really really care about balance: take a hard look at the expansions you are considering using. Some expansions alone swing the pendulum in one direction whereas some combinations may leave the pendulum swinging one way or the other depending on the randomness of the Crisis deck.
 
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It has been said that the game itself is a cylon player, so you get easier math by adding a dummy cylon into the equations.


Yeah, I realized this some time after I posted this. Essentially a 2-to-1 is 2-to-2, and 3-to-2 is 3-to-3 if you consider the game an extra cylon player. My math still stands that 2.5-to-1.5 or 3.5-to-2.5 is the best, and there’s the problem.

Quote:
Mutineer tries to create a half-human player by depriving an action each time he/she has a jump symbol. If you don't use your action by performing the action on the Mutiny card, you end up in the brig, thus removing the possibility of jump symbol. But the Mutiny cards themselves have a positive side for the cost, so playing them is not a null action. Also, if the Mutineer appears only at sleeper, you are having only a 0.75 x human instead of the 0.5 x that was the goal.


I agree that from what I can tell, the mutineer isn’t the whole equation. The mutiny cards suck up a lot of actions or skill cards put into checks, and the mutineer itself is actually very lenient (because mutiny is there). However, I’m not sure that the mutiny cards, which are pretty well side-neutral from what I can tell, add a lot of depth for the amount of complexity they add. It seems to me it’s a null action to avoid being brigged.

As to the bolded part, you might have 2 cylons the first phase or no cylons the first phase; I think it matters more what you have at the end. Because with any of the sympathizer variants, you don’t get them active until mid-game anyway.

Quote:
I think the Cylon Leader Motives are a success. First of all, you are a Cylon Leader from the beginning, and by choice, so there is not the swingyness of when Mutineer appears (or if appears at all with the extra loyalty card of Exodus). Secondly, Cylon Leader has to walk the centerline to be able to fulfill all but one of their motives: if you want humans to win, you have to deplete the resources, giving cylons a chance, and if you want the cylons to win, you have to protect resources, giving humans a chance. And thirdly, playing cylon leader needs very different approach than playing either human or cylon, and the huge number of Motive combinations and CL powers/handicaps (not to mention how the human/cylon game is always different) give a lot of variety. I like a lot playing Cylon Leader with Motives, to me it is very interesting.


I agree, and I might just want to say that Cylon Leaders should be used for 4- or 6-player games. I was more concerned about the best option to also have them available in 5 or in case we had 7 people show up (since at that point it’s the only board game I have that supports 7, unless someone else brings over another).

Quote:
Mutineer does its best to allow the fourth human player some amount of player agency but it's imperfect.

Again, if you really really care about balance: take a hard look at the expansions you are considering using. Some expansions alone swing the pendulum in one direction whereas some combinations may leave the pendulum swinging one way or the other depending on the randomness of the Crisis deck.


This is true. I kind of wonder how the game would do with a sort of a reboot, where instead of one game with a lot of expansions, they took the lessons learned and moved forward. Maybe a moderate amount of skill cards (i.e. base game + 1 expansion equivalent), a few options regarding 4-to-6 player games, the CFB and CACs with rules to use one or the other, and maybe a couple of destinations (although I don’t think many people would want more than Kobol and Earth). Balance the one game and worry about the modules staying balanced instead of the swinging pendulum.
 
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Kwijiboe
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skribs15 wrote:
kwijiboe wrote:
Mutineer does its best to allow the fourth human player some amount of player agency but it's imperfect.

Again, if you really really care about balance: take a hard look at the expansions you are considering using. Some expansions alone swing the pendulum in one direction whereas some combinations may leave the pendulum swinging one way or the other depending on the randomness of the Crisis deck.


This is true. I kind of wonder how the game would do with a sort of a reboot, where instead of one game with a lot of expansions, they took the lessons learned and moved forward. Maybe a moderate amount of skill cards (i.e. base game + 1 expansion equivalent), a few options regarding 4-to-6 player games, the CFB and CACs with rules to use one or the other, and maybe a couple of destinations (although I don’t think many people would want more than Kobol and Earth). Balance the one game and worry about the modules staying balanced instead of the swinging pendulum.


In my opinion, Daybreak is that reboot.
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You really could do the No Symp variant with 4p or 6p in Daybreak. 1 or 2 cylons respectively, the rest humans, no CL nor Mutr., and you're good to go! Well, remember to set Morale and Food at one less (9 and 7 respectively), and pop at 2 less at 10. Also, revealed cylon players draw 3 skill cards which all must be different.


One thing I did enjoy about the Symp Cylon was when she infiltrated, since she has no skill set, she can grab any card during her Receive Skill Cards step. Want to XO someone? Grab green. Need to repair? Grab blue. SP? Grab purple.


Kwijiboe wrote:
I think people dislike mutiny because they forget they had a mutiny card until they are dealt another and are subsequently sent to the brig.

Simply put, they dislike it just because they're not used to it.

In my opinion, the Mutineer is an elegant fix to the Sympathizer problems of the past. People dislike it because it occasionally forces them to waste an action: but this is the entire point. It balances the game by wasting human actions.
Some complaints I heard was it's too swingy, similar to CAC. If CAC come out en masse, you're doomed. If they hardly come out, then it's smooth sailing. Mutr. tends to put out more Mutiny, but factors like when he comes out, and how prominent Treachery becomes, as it can snowball or be manageable.


oriecat wrote:
Invasion81 wrote:
Mutiny cards tend to be bad for humans, so it balances the humans and cylons by forcing the humans to play certain unfortunate cards.


I would disagree with this. I think most Mutiny cards are good for humans and the drawbacks are often avoidable or just not that bad and playing them is often worth it. I think that's the biggest problem with them personally - they are too good. They should hurt a little more.
Well, you'd still need to spend the move, "travel fee" many times, and the action to discard a Mutiny if you can't safely play it.

In the rare case where C1 is gone (Bomb On C1, or welcome to New Caprica!), then it gets more hairy.
 
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Quote:
Some complaints I heard was it's too swingy, similar to CAC. If CAC come out en masse, you're doomed. If they hardly come out, then it's smooth sailing. Mutr. tends to put out more Mutiny, but factors like when he comes out, and how prominent Treachery becomes, as it can snowball or be manageable.


I was reading PBF 399, and mutiny seemed to be a huge factor in Cylon victory there. Granted, some of the players hadn't done much with mutiny before, but it had a HUGE impact on the game.
 
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Quick Session Report:

I played an (admittedly) amusing game last night where Roslin was handed the Mutineer title card on the first turn. (I believe this is probably the biggest reason people dislike the Mutineer card: they hate the idea that their titles are taken from them.)

She was faced with the decision to either choose a jump prep symbol (and draw Mutiny) or not choose a jump prep (and not draw Mutiny). As it turns out, she drew a Mutiny card on her turn for the entirety of the game thanks to her OPT ability.

Fortunately (for the humans), Daybreak Tom Zarek was managing the mutiny deck and dealt out benign cards to Roslin for the entire game.
(NuZarek is definitely overpowered with the Mutineer and should probably not be chosen if you care about balance. Alternatively, the verdict is still out on whether Mutineer (w/o Zarek) is balanced.)

On Mutineer Balance:

Last night's game was an anomaly. Mutineer out at the start is definitely crippling and it probably would have been more balanced without Daybreak New Zarek. (In our case it was hard to tell since one of the Cylon agents was too helpful as a newbie player. Additionally, poor Roslin was activated post-sleeper.)

In games I've played where the Mutineer comes out post-sleeper it usually hands out only a couple of Mutiny cards. However, at this point, the treachery deck is building up momentum and Mutiny cards should be starting to make their presence in players' hands. However, in my games: many Mutiny cards come into play via Daybreak's Crisis cards. Consequently, if you're playing an all expansions game and have added all Crises cards to the Crisis deck, Mutiny will likely play a lesser role in the game: thus, Mutiny (and the Mutineer) will likely play less of an impact on the game. Since the Mutineer relies on the Mutiny card mechanics: diluting the Crisis deck and making Daybreak crises rarer will have a direct effect on Mutiny's (and the Mutineer's) effect on the game.

Therefore, I believe if you want the Mutiny mechanic (and the Mutineer) to have more of an effect on the game:

You should not mix the Crises deck with Pegasus and Exodus crises. (Exodus is by far the bigger offendor. Pegasus deals out treachery cards at the very least.)

Another observation is that the Mutineer plays a (slightly) larger role if the destination is Earth. The reason for this is obvious: more turns may be required.

Finally, where's that dead horse at? If you want balance, consider how the expansions/modules you've played with have an effect on balance.
 
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Kwijiboe
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skribs15 wrote:
Quote:
Some complaints I heard was it's too swingy, similar to CAC. If CAC come out en masse, you're doomed. If they hardly come out, then it's smooth sailing. Mutr. tends to put out more Mutiny, but factors like when he comes out, and how prominent Treachery becomes, as it can snowball or be manageable.


I was reading PBF 399, and mutiny seemed to be a huge factor in Cylon victory there. Granted, some of the players hadn't done much with mutiny before, but it had a HUGE impact on the game.


Clarification: We're talking about the Mutineer's impact on the game, not Mutiny in general.

In that game, looks like there was more than a few questionable decisions to draw Mutiny via discarding 0-Strength Treachery cards. However, there was some very nice usages of the Press Room by Tom Zarek.

Humans put themselves into the brig: which is hilarious.
 
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Robert Stewart
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skribs15 wrote:
As to the scoring system...there are 2 problems with that system.
1) The balance is going to be different using Sympathizer (incredibly harsh for humans) and Mutineer (which people are saying ranges from balanced to very Human-friendly).


The effect of Sympathizer varies - provided you manage to drop a resource into the red by Sleeper, it's not that bad for humans - you're effectively playing a 5/3 player game but with a bonus Human sat in the Brig. If they just sit there for the second half of the game, just drawing skill cards and discarding due to hand limit, never actually taking any actions, nor contributing anything to skill checks, then you're no worse off than in a smaller game. The moment they actually do anything helpful, you're ahead.

Sympathizer only really hurts humans when they join the Cylon side.
 
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Dan
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The reason I say symp is harsh on humans is because...

1) If you do well the first half of the game, you lose.
2) In order to have a chance to win, resources must be hurt. Which means...
2A) Cylons can hide easier by saying they're hurting resources to make sure the sympathizer is Human.
2B) You might actually run into a situation where Humans want to hurt resources and Cylons want to preserve them.
2C) I don't find it thematic the politics of this. I find the sympathizer thematic, but not the choice between cylon and human being based on how well the humans are doing.
 
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