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Subject: Placing the Wrong Maneuver Dial rss

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Drew Bishop
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Hey guys!

I was playing a top 4 game with an opponent at a recent Imdar Alpha event, and he incorrectly placed two dials for his ships.

He realized this when he revealed a TIE Defender dial to move his TIE Fighter. Without my consent he went to move his fighter as the defender dial.

I told him that even though his dial was the incorrect one, he still placed a maneuver dial down for both ships-- and to switch them. (Switch them as in the dials, so his fighter did what he intended his defender to do, and vice-versa)

On this I was called out on, and the TO said as long as the maneuver was one both ships were legal to do, that his mistake was okay and he could continue...

I was bashed for my reaction, and there is nothing in the rulebook or FAQ that I can find that says what to do in a situation like this.

Having told my story, what is the general ruling of this? What does everyone think should happen when this mess up happens?
 
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Sebastian Grawan
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In one of my Imdaar games my opponent used the wrong dial for one of his ships, too, but the maneuver was the same on both dials so I let him do it.

If your opponent used viable maneuvers on the wrong dials he used (so no impossible moves on each of the ships), I think that for this one time he should be allowed to, for fair sportsmanship.
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Xander Fulton
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rashktah wrote:
If your opponent used viable maneuvers on the wrong dials he used (so no impossible moves on each of the ships), I think that for this one time he should be allowed to, for fair sportsmanship.


That's generally how I'd have played it. Of course, if the maneuver was green on the 'wrong' dial but white on the 'correct' dial (or something like that), then I'd make him put his stress token back on the ship (no, that maneuver doesn't clear stress on that ship) or whatever...but, generally, I'm going to assume he used the wrong dials when setting them and not simply crossing them when laying them down (which would be a bit odd to do - you do, after all, know what maneuver you just set in the dial you are putting down from your hand!)
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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That's a tough one. He should have manned up to his mistake and played on. As it is, you did all you could in calling the TO over to sort it out. I'm sorry the breaks didn't go your way this time.

Put it behind you, be a good sport, and drive on to the next game.

...Wait. Your opponent had a TIE Defender???
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Kevin Smith
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Godzillafreak01 wrote:

I was playing a top 4 game with an opponent at a recent Imdar Alpha event, and he incorrectly placed two dials for his ships.
He realized this when he revealed a TIE Defender dial to move his TIE Fighter. Without my consent he went to move his fighter as the defender dial.
I told him that even though his dial was the incorrect one, he still placed a maneuver dial down for both ships-- and to switch them. (Switch them as in the dials, so his fighter did what he intended his defender to do, and vice-versa)
On this I was called out on, and the TO said as long as the maneuver was one both ships were legal to do, that his mistake was okay and he could continue...
I was bashed for my reaction, and there is nothing in the rulebook or FAQ that I can find that says what to do in a situation like this.
Having told my story, what is the general ruling of this? What does everyone think should happen when this mess up happens?

"Technically" the Defender probably should have been moved with the Defender dial, and the Fighter moved with the Fighter dial.
If it was obvious when the dials were placed on the table what the intended ship was to be moved with what dial, then I probably would have let it go.
You shouldn't have been bashed regardless, as you're not the one who made the mistake.

Kevin
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Jesse L
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Godzillafreak01 wrote:
Hey guys!

I was playing a top 4 game with an opponent at a recent Imdar Alpha event, and he incorrectly placed two dials for his ships.

He realized this when he revealed a TIE Defender dial to move his TIE Fighter. Without my consent he went to move his fighter as the defender dial.

I told him that even though his dial was the incorrect one, he still placed a maneuver dial down for both ships-- and to switch them. (Switch them as in the dials, so his fighter did what he intended his defender to do, and vice-versa)

On this I was called out on, and the TO said as long as the maneuver was one both ships were legal to do, that his mistake was okay and he could continue...

I was bashed for my reaction, and there is nothing in the rulebook or FAQ that I can find that says what to do in a situation like this.

Having told my story, what is the general ruling of this? What does everyone think should happen when this mess up happens?


I gotta agree with the TO on this one, it was an honest mistake and one that happens to the best of us. We're human, we make silly mistakes, and to force his ships to go in completely wrong directions is a little unsportsmanlike.

Fly Casual dude.... fly casual...
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XanderF wrote:
rashktah wrote:
If your opponent used viable maneuvers on the wrong dials he used (so no impossible moves on each of the ships), I think that for this one time he should be allowed to, for fair sportsmanship.


That's generally how I'd have played it. Of course, if the maneuver was green on the 'wrong' dial but white on the 'correct' dial (or something like that), then I'd make him put his stress token back on the ship (no, that maneuver doesn't clear stress on that ship) or whatever...but, generally, I'm going to assume he used the wrong dials when setting them and not simply crossing them when laying them down (which would be a bit odd to do - you do, after all, know what maneuver you just set in the dial you are putting down from your hand!)


This seems the fairest and most reasonable to me. The players I play with are all friendly and very sportsmanlike, and the mistakes made are honest mistakes. I could be unique in my experience and I understand your frustration, but I would honestly say let one slide.

That being said you shouldn't have been criticized for voicing your concern, the environment needs to be friendly for all players.

However, on the bright side, top 4 match means you walked away with a Wave 4 ship, right? There are some I prefer over the others, but I'd have been happy if I had ended up with any of them!
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J Chav
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I glance at all my dials before revealing them.

If I switched them, I tell my opponent I have the wrong one assigned and ask if I can switch to the right one. I don't frequently fly two of the same ship so it's usually pretty easy to fix. Not that it's happened often.
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Drew Bishop
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Look at it this way guys, I was playing for 1st at the imdar alpha pre-release tourney.

Regardless of winning or losing, I was going to get one of the four ships. So flying casual was my thing.

I was just surprised at how there was no repercussion for placing the wrong dial.

Interesting responses here-- I can tell you guys that yes I was fine with the TO's ruling but.... It still doesn't sit right with me.

I feel that the maneuver dials should have stayed the same but gone to the corresponding ships.

My opponent made a big deal out of it to me, because he was actually fighting for an actual ship. He had 2 modified wins to my 3 straight wins, so he acted like I was being unfair to him, and because of the ruling he did wind up finishing me off!

Just wanted to clarify to all that I was in no way pushing for one ruling or the other-- I was just confident that the dials went to the correspondin ships and play it like that... But not even FFG has a ruling for this...

 
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J Chav
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Oh so it was the 'right' maneuver but the wrong template? Yeah I would force them to move whatever they selected as if it was the original template. If it was an invalid move then the opponent should select the maneuver. I think it is in the tournament rules.
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Guido Gloor
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Godzillafreak01 wrote:
I feel that the maneuver dials should have stayed the same but gone to the corresponding ships.

That would have made a complete mess of his plans though, for little reason. Obviously, the player didn't plan for either of the ships in the mixup to move with its original dial.

I think that there needs to be a distinction here:

If the wrong dial was assigned to a ship, with a maneuver that the ship can do in the same color, I'd just let it slide.
If the wrong dial was assigned to a ship, with a maneuver that the ship can do in a different color, I'd insist on having it played with the color the ship itself has for the maneuver, regardless of the dial's color.
If the wrong dial was assigned to a ship, with a maneuver that the ship can't do, I'd act it out like a red maneuver was assigned to the ship when it had stress - so the opponent can select the maneuver of the ship instead.

But indeed, the rules are silent on the issue.
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J Chav
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Found this in the FAQ.

Quote:
If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to
the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.
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Matthew Bearden
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Danath wrote:
Found this in the FAQ.

Quote:
If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to
the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.


I don't think this completely fits the case at hand BUT I would rule it the same. There is just room for dishonest players to find a way and abuse a lenient ruling like this. I don't have any examples of the top of my head but is some one wants to win bad enough they will find something.
 
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Robby Timmermans
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Accidentally switching dials happens from time to time. My ruling with that is simple:
- is it a valid move for the ship, let it slide
- is it a valid move but wrong color, stress token
- is it an invalid move, the opponent gets to choose

in the heat of the battle it can happen that you pick up a dial and start turning (hey, it said TIE... something) and only when revealing realize your error.

Most players at my location know this rule and apply it without asking
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Moritz MacBenic
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fatum wrote:
Accidentally switching dials happens from time to time. My ruling with that is simple:
- is it a valid move for the ship, let it slide
- is it a valid move but wrong color, stress token
- is it an invalid move, the opponent gets to choose

in the heat of the battle it can happen that you pick up a dial and start turning (hey, it said TIE... something) and only when revealing realize your error.

Most players at my location know this rule and apply it without asking


Yeah it mostly happens with TIE-Somethings and X- and Y-Wings. Sometimes people don't look a second time.
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Joe Reil
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GogTad wrote:
I don't think this completely fits the case at hand BUT I would rule it the same. There is just room for dishonest players to find a way and abuse a lenient ruling like this. I don't have any examples of the top of my head but is some one wants to win bad enough they will find something.


Well, generally speaking if a pattern forms of someone taking advantage of this, you should very quickly revert to the stricter ruling. I haven't run tournaments for X-wing, but have for other games and generally speaking, I never had a problem with having a bit of latitude for the occasional honest mistake in smallish local-level events.

In this case, the person's opponent was clearly OK with this as well, so that's how I'd have handled it.

Now - in a larger tournament or if someone repeats the mistake over and over? Then you get into strict enforcement.
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Hejas PL
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No offence, but making your opponent switch the dials and possibly make some ridiculous moves with both ships (in a case when both of his chosen maneuvers were correct) sounds a bit like a dick move to me.

Wrong dial changes nothing if the chosen maneuvers are legit.
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Ken
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Hejas wrote:
No offence, but making your opponent switch the dials and possibly make some ridiculous moves with both ships (in a case when both of his chosen maneuvers were correct) sounds a bit like a dick move to me.

Wrong dial changes nothing if the chosen maneuvers are legit.


But what if those to moves mean you have a shot or not. Or by switching, you have a shot if the opponent went the other way. For our house rules the defender always decides, this keeps down on the issues. We also play/fly casual. But in a tourney it is somewhat different and people play far more critically and a single move could mean a championship versus a loss. What if it meant the game and the prize was a bye at nationals?

Also what is possibly a more ridiculous move than the opponent choosing your move for you, which at least has precedence in the rules.

[Edited for spell'in and grammar]
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Drew Bishop
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Thanks for the feedback ladies and gentlemen!

I'm going to email FFG about this ruling. While I agree it is a nice thing to do to just let it slide...

But what if it was a regional qualifier game? What if it was worlds? I feel like the rules should address this...

As you could take it a step further with "well I don't have a TIE fighter dial but as long as I use the right maneuvers a TIE Fighter has, I can use a Firespray-31 dial for it!"

....... That is most certainly stretching it by a YT-1300 load but still!

I shall return with FFG's word! Hopefully!

Drew
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Guido Gloor
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Godzillafreak01 wrote:
"well I don't have a TIE fighter dial but as long as I use the right maneuvers a TIE Fighter has, I can use a Firespray-31 dial for it!"

Leaving practicality aside (as it is annoying to always have to double-check the legality of your moves) ... what's the fundamental problem with this?
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Chris L
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If I was the player who had switched my dials, then clearly the honorable thing to do is to own up to the mistake, switch the dials to the correct ships and move my ships the wrong way rather than what I intended.

I find it utterly incomprehensible how someone can turn this around and call the opponent a "dick" or "unsportsmanlike" as some have done here or "bash" the opponent as the OP said did happen for calling this out. A mistake was made in a tournament and that person should just take his lumps.
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I'm at least going to call no way on the switching rule. It has too much potential for abuse.

Suppose I run 2 Ties and 2 Interceptors, and I "accidentally" switch all 4 dials so that each ship has the wrong type of maneuver dial. When I first reveal this mistake on an interceptor, which dial do I swap? I have 2 options on both the tie fighters.
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John Woodworth
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fatum wrote:
My ruling with that is simple:
- is it a valid move for the ship, let it slide
- is it a valid move but wrong color, stress token
- is it an invalid move, the opponent gets to choose


This is what I'd do as well, if I were the one making the decision.

Assuming the maneuver picked is legal for both ships, and the same color... then it sounds like a case of no harm, no foul.

But if it isn't a legal or same color maneuver, then you need to address it. I don't think switching the dials back is the right answer, especially if both maneuvers are legal, because now those ships will most likely be moving somewhere other then where they were intended.

So the above cases seems to cover every possibility. Although myself I'd treat the maneuver as what ever color it is on the correct dial...
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Chris L
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Donkler wrote:
I'm at least going to call no way on the switching rule. It has too much potential for abuse.

Suppose I run 2 Ties and 2 Interceptors, and I "accidentally" switch all 4 dials so that each ship has the wrong type of maneuver dial. When I first reveal this mistake on an interceptor, which dial do I swap? I have 2 options on both the tie fighters.


Now you're being silly.

If this happened, obviously the pilots are very confused. Make them all go 1 straight as if they'd all been ioned, slap the player to wake him up and tell him to pay better attention. He obviously had been drinking too much the night before.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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I was at this event, serving as co-TO, and while I wasn't involved in the ruling (I didn't even know which of the players was on which side of the incident until afterward), I completely agree with my co-TO's ruling. The relevant facts (as he told me; again, I didn't move to the table to see):

(1) The moves were valid for both ships.

(2) The dials were placed in proximity to the ships they were intended for.

(3) It was a casual event.

(4) There hadn't been any other incidents involving the player making the mistake, such as to indicate any advantage-seeking.

IOW, it was just a mistake, made at 12:15 AM after upteen games of X-Wing, with brand-new ships.

Given all of that, the proper thing to do, IMO, was simply apply the moves as placed to the ships they were placed near. This might require, for instance, some change that the mistake-making player has to deal with. For instance, if the TIE Fighter (using the TIE Defender's dial) plotted a 5-straight (green), then the TIE Fighter does a 5-straight (white; not getting any benefit of the green maneuver on the (wrong) dial).

If any of those facts had been different, I think the ruling would have (properly) been different.

I do sorta wish the backs of the dials also indicated ship type. It would make these things less common. I used my YT-1300 dial for my B-wings (and vice-versa) at least 15 times over the weekend, and I only caught all of them because my YT dial is so much more noticeably worn.)

Out of curiosity, Drew, who bashed you? Neither Darryl nor I heard anybody saying anything bad about you and the incident. As far as I'm concerned, you did exactly the right thing, in exactly the right way ... there was a dispute, the two players disagreed, you called the TO, he made a ruling, and you immediately accepted it. It seems like your involvement was text-book correct, to me.

As an aside, the Z-95 Headhunter I received was broken in two places. Was it like that from the package? (Not a big deal, but since I emailed FFG for a replacement, they may want to know if it shipped like that or not. Damned thing is fragile ... )
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