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Subject: Five Ways D-Day Could Have Ended In Disaster rss

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Michael Peck
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Not a game article, but how the Germans might have won the battle is the theme of many wargames. These are just my thoughts on how the Germans might have repelled the landings. I'm sure many of you can come up with your own. http://nationalinterest.org/feature/five-ways-d-day-could-ha...

Michael
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Bill Eldard
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Regarding the panzer divisions driving through Normandy and to the sea, let's not forget the terrain. The same hedgerow country that hindered the Allied breakout would've hindered the German break-in.

The Allies had something like 100,000 well-equipped troops ashore in the first 24 hours -- that's a lot to push back into the sea, especially when one lacks air superiority.

(ADDED) There's also a case to be made for Allied air supremacy over Normany when regarding a faster panzer reserve reaction. Concentrations of German armor could draw more carpet bombings like the pasting Panzer Lehr was subjected to.
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Brian Train
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Nice article Michael! I'm enjoying your writing.

Brian
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Thomas Hammerschmidt
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Eldard wrote:
Regarding the panzer divisions driving through Normandy and to the sea, let's not forget the terrain. The same hedgerow country that hindered the Allied breakout would've hindered the German break-in.

The Allies had something like 100,000 well-equipped troops ashore in the first 24 hours -- that's a lot to push back into the sea, especially when one lacks air superiority.


And experience in the Mediterranean showed that German attacks in the presence of Allied Naval bombardment took very heavy losses are rarely succeeded.
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Severus Snape
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If the Canadians had not landed at Juno.

That should say it all. ninja arrrh

goo
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Michael Rinella
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Had he been given a free hand Rommel had planned to place the 12ss Division in the Grandcamp region. Now whether or not that would have made a difference at Omaha Beach can be debated but it does give thought to some pretty scary scenarios. If the Allies had abandoned Omaha for Utah (briefly discussed) the American and British beachheads would have been distinctly separate. Would even that have mattered. Again, you could debate it.
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Severus Snape
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Pascal said, "The eternal silence of these infinite spaces terrifies me."
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Michael Rinella wrote:
Had he been given a free hand Rommel had planned to place the 12ss Division in the Grandcamp region. Now whether or not that would have made a difference at Omaha Beach can be debated but it does give thought to some pretty scary scenarios. If the Allies had abandoned Omaha for Utah (briefly discussed) the American and British beachheads would have been distinctly separate. Would even that have mattered. Again, you could debate it.


Mike, you should do for D-Day what you did for Market Garden, as in your Monty's Gamble design--a terrific game.

goo
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Severus Snape
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Pascal said, "The eternal silence of these infinite spaces terrifies me."
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
bentlarsen wrote:
If the Canadians had not landed at Juno.



As at Vimy, the Canadians had a mostly out-classed enemy dominated by overwhelming firepower at JUNO. Take a look at the order of battle of 716 Infanterie Division sometime, as well as their initial deployments on 6 June 1944. It would have been embarrassing not to wipe the floor with them.

Not to take away from the bravery of vets - of any nation - that day, but the Canadians really didn't do anything special. They managed to get to the farthest phase line, which is often mentioned. They didn't stay there though. I believe this was the road/rail line from Caen to Bayeux. A platoon or so of Shermans wandered past Authie and Buron, squatted near the embankment, then retired.

For what it is worth, there were some objectives in the sector unsecured - the radar station, for example, between JUNO and SWORD, which was an incredibly tough nut to crack.

The Canadians are probably lucky that 21st Panzer Division didn't attack sooner, and in greater strength. Those DD Shermans did not include 17-pounder armed Fireflies. Anti-tank power was relegated to the Royal Canadian Artillery, and while the 3rd Division's anti-tank regiment had had been equipped with M10 SPs for the invasion, there has been much ink spilled about the ability of the Canadians to coordinate their efforts during the Normandy battle. In the chaos of June 6, I doubt they would have managed a full-blown counter-attack better - or worse - than the British or Americans.


If you ever come to understand hyperbole and tongue-in-cheek responses, please let me know. First thing I'll do is faint and hit the floor. My post was done with a wink and a nudge and a knowledge of the "facts," which you have bombarded us with. I also posted with the very things you do know kept in my mind: Utah, Omaha, Sword, etc, because truly it was an Allied effort, with the combined services fighting and dying to ensure success.

But thank goodness we have you here to keep those cheeky Canadians in check, lest they poke someone in the eye with a maple leaf or a beaver's tail.

goo
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Wendell
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Ugh. Not only do we have to click through to a separate site for the list, but it is spread over three separate pages.


Yeah, writers of stories always decide personally what the webpage layout should be...
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Cpl. Fields
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Ugh. Not only do we have to click through to a separate site for the list, but it is spread over three separate pages.


Unless you can, you know, read.



Interesting article. Thanks for the link.
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Rex Stites
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
Ugh. Not only do we have to click through to a separate site for the list, but it is spread over three separate pages.


Yeah, writers of stories always decide personally what the webpage layout should be...


Interestingly enough, the writer of the story was the same person that made the initial post in this thread.


Clearly, linking an article on this forum is indicative that the person determined the layout of the linked page.
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Wendell
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
Ugh. Not only do we have to click through to a separate site for the list, but it is spread over three separate pages.


Yeah, writers of stories always decide personally what the webpage layout should be...


Interestingly enough, the writer of the story was the same person that made the initial post in this thread.


Well, duh.
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Wendell
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:
Ugh. Not only do we have to click through to a separate site for the list, but it is spread over three separate pages.


Yeah, writers of stories always decide personally what the webpage layout should be...


Interestingly enough, the writer of the story was the same person that made the initial post in this thread.


Well, duh.




http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1099261/the-greatest-sniper-...

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1058965/why-the-death-of-the...

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/875514/cuban-missile-crisis

Mr. Peck uses BGG to drive traffic to other, presumably low-traffic sites. He also rarely participates in his own threads. A genuine desire to discuss the topic and generate discussion here would have, I think, included a more descriptive summary or attempt to engage this audience. Though he is getting better. He used to just post bare URLs.



An alternative way to look at this, Mr. Dorosh, is that Mr. Peck is sharing a link to a topic that he thought might interest denizens of the wargame forum at BGG. BGG users do this occasionally, don't they? Yes, Mr. Peck wrote those pieces. That's OK, isn't it? In any case, they are no charge for BGG members to read, and BGG readers are free to ignore them. In any case, I fail to see how this has caused you any harm, beyond the marginal wear and tear on the keyboard of your computer caused by clicking links.

And as for articles on the web being broken into multiple pages, yes it is inconvenient for the reader, I agree. It is also extremely common (you have seen other websites, right?) and is beyond the control of the writer of a given article.

I hope I have expressed myself simply enough.

Oh and incidentally Mr. Peck, though not as active on BGG as you and I, is a long-time wargamer and a good guy. We played World in Flames together.
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Severus Snape
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Michael, me thinks that Fearless Leader has handed you your hat, along with your head, and pointed you to exit stage right until the next opportunity for you to pontificate--likely microseconds away--comes along. Time for you to go back to your cave of allknowing and lick you wounds while plotting your next foray into the world of common sense and good manners.

goo
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Captain Nemo
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Michael Dorosh wrote:

There was no reason for either side to use gas as it conferred no advantages.


True but I suspect it advantages the attacker in WWII as the defender is more fixed to his defensive positions than the attacker is to his positions which he can more easily change.
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Andy Daglish
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Poison gas is not convincing

Sarin convinced everyone to manufacture it post-war. The great problem would have been efficient delivery to the target, however impregnated uniforms wouldn't offer protection against something that incapacitates in parts per billion concentration. Presumably it was considered too dangerous for the users in Operation Reinhardt, hence the use of the common cyanide-based insecticide Zyklon. Hitler's firm antipathy toward chemical weapons was reported by many, and may have been influenced by his own gassing, however he supposedly cited the Hague conventions as his reason. The German army stuck to these rules where they were respected. With characteristic ineffectuality Hitler ordered the end of the Sarin and Tabun programs, and no one obeyed. The Allies became aware of the danger toward the end of the northwest Europe campaign, which resulted in some emergency movements of phosgene bombs to airfields.
 
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James
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From the article wrote:
But Germany had a "wonder weapon." The Me-262 jet fighter flew 150 miles faster than propeller-driven Mustangs and Spitfires. It didn't effectively enter the war until late 1944, a victim of teething troubles and Hitler's insistence in 1943 that it should be built as a jet bomber.


http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2013/06/wwii-myths-me...

The PC flight sim "Aces over Europe” came with a great technical manual that included a historical synopsis and details over every aircraft includedin the game. The page on the ME-262 specifically described the Hitler induced delays as a myth. It points out the Arado jet bomber was in development at the same time.

Also, I have to believe that it would take Messerschmitt's engineers only a couple of days to weld on some bomb mounts, rig a cable release, and do a quick demonstration for Der Fuehrer. Not unlike how modern engineers and developers put together a special demo to placate some clueless manager who managed to get their 'pet feature' into the design requirements.

Seeing the History Channel repeatedly pin the 262's delays on Hitler's bomber insistence without providing any evidence or context has always bugged me.
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Fred Thomas
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hammurabi70 wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:

There was no reason for either side to use gas as it conferred no advantages.

True but I suspect it advantages the attacker in WWII as the defender is more fixed to his defensive positions than the attacker is to his positions which he can more easily change.

Goering said that the Germans were worried about being disproportionately affected because they were much more reliant on horses and didn't have a gas mask that horses could tolerate.
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mark feldman
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I would like to see what would have happened if they had listened to this man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cota . landing the Rangers and trained assault troops in the early hours of June 6th to silence the bunkers before the invasion.
 
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John McD
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marcus arilus wrote:
I would like to see what would have happened if they had listened to this man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cota . landing the Rangers and trained assault troops in the early hours of June 6th to silence the bunkers before the invasion.


You could very easily blow apart the whole plan I'd think. If that attack fails you've given hours of warning, and alerted the Nazis to your intention making it harder to ever carry out successfully.

Was there a track record of that kind of attack working well?
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