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Subject: ECG As New Game Family Suggestion rss

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Jey Legarie
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Hi,

I'm the creator of Dungeon Crawler the expandable card game. Recently I had a BGG fan suggest that I request a new game family for ECG to match our game format. I contacted BGG admins and they said to post here.

We have no plans to trademark ECG, and there must be other games out there with this format.

I'm going to take a shot at defining this, sorry if this comes off rocky or inelegant.

The Expandable Card Game (ECG) has a stand alone starter and can be mixed and matched with themed expansions. The themed expansions are not stand alone, but combining multiple expansions can give you enough play material to play the game.

There is no randomization in the decks (we removed this from our game), so it is not a CCG.

LCG is a trademarked term, so we can not use this terminology either.

Hopefully that all makes sense, thanks for your consideration.
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Herb
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Ok first, I'm not sure that evryone is aware, but there are quite a few families that are really about the mechanics of gameplay.

Boardgame Families that are "Archetype" games



Point 1 - Asking the herd
Not sure I'm happy with let's ask herd about the need for a new family. The criteria before was to get a set of at least 20(?).



Point 2 - Why must it be themed?

Quote:
The Expandable Card Game (ECG) has a stand alone starter and can be mixed and matched with themed expansions.


Granted most of them would be. But I could add "fairy cards" (aka fairy pieces in chess) to a standard deck of cards to create a new game. Think of the "Joker" in a standard deck.

I just don't like specifically creating exclusions if they don't need to be there...



Point 3 - Family name

The current definition for Collectible Components category:

Quote:
Collectible Components games are ones where the components required to play the game are purchased incrementally, rather than all at once.

These games have a transitory nature as reprints really aren't possible. Collecting a "complete set" for many of these games could be considered a hobby.

The most popular Collectible Components games come in the form of Collectible Card Games (CCG) or Miniatures games.


There are these families:
CCGs (Collectible Card Games)
CDGs (Collectible Dice Games)
CMGs (Collectible Miniatures Games)
CTGs (Collectible Token Games)

So to fit the pattern it would seem that the Family name should be:

ECG (Expandable Card Game)



Point 4 - Rename all the "Collectible Components" subcategories

I'd prefer to see all the names change to:
Collectible Components: Collectible Card Games (CCG)
Collectible Components: Collectible Dice Games (CDG)
Collectible Components: Expandable Card Game (ECG)
Collectible Components: Collectible Miniatures Games (CMG)
Collectible Components: Collectible Token Game (CTG)

At least it would be clear that these families were subcategories of the "Collectible Components" category.



Point 5 - Difference between CCG and ECG ?!?

The current definition of CGG family.
Quote:
A collectible card game (CCG), also called a trading card game (TCG) or customizable card game, is a game played using specially designed sets of playing cards. While trading cards have been around for longer, CCGs combine the appeal of collecting with strategic gameplay.

The modern concept of CCG games was first presented in Magic: The Gathering, designed by Richard Garfield and published by Wizards of the Coast in 1993. An earlier game that might be described as a collectible card game was The Base Ball Card Game produced by The Allegheny Card Co. and registered on April 5, 1904.


How is what you are proposing any differ than this?

If you can buy various sets and put them together to make a game, then it would seem to me that is a CCG.

Take the game Anachronism. It isn't now characterized as being in the CCG family, but it seems that it should be. Yes there were various "starter sets" that came with a mat. A 4x4 grid. No big deal, but there was something besides just cards.

Isn't Dungeon Crawler just cards?

So it would seem that if we want a new family then it should be for some subtype of a CCG that needs a "starter set" which has components other than just cards. Aka Anachronism's 4x4 mat.



Point 6 - What does randomization have to do with a CCG?

Quote:
There is no randomization in the decks (we removed this from our game), so it is not a CCG.


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Herb
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I'll also point out that CCG is defined in the Glossary differently than in the the family.

Glossary:
Quote:
CCG

n. Abbreviation for Collectible Card Game. This type of game uses a basic rule structure and a large assortment of cards which each have characteristics that contradict or supplement the basic rules. Each player selects a number of cards that they own to create a deck which they use in the game. This allows players to predetermine their strategies. The game rules define how many cards must be used and how many copies of each single card are allowed. Cards are sold in "booster packs". Packs contain a fixed number of cards and usually include one "rare" card, some "uncommon" cards, and the bulk of the pack contains "common" cards. Rare cards are generally more powerful or efficient than uncommons or commons, which can lead to the problem that the person who has spent the most money on cards wins. The original collectible card game was Magic: The Gathering. Its incredible success spawned dozens of copycat games. Some were good; many were awful. Other examples are Middle-Earth, Pokemon and Netrunner


New terms: booster pack, rare cards, common cards, uncommon cards


 
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Herb
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Point 5 above.

Forgot about "rules". Rules would come in a "starter set", not so in an "expansion set."

So if all sets of cards came with set of rules, then all sets would be "starter sets", and the use of the phrase pointless as applied to that game.
 
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Alysa
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herace wrote:
Point 5 above.


And also about your point 6.

Booster packs, which you could call small expansion sets, contain random cards. If you buy 2 of them, the contents of each will be different.

Because you don't know what is going to be in a booster pack it's a collectible/trading game where you might even want to trade your doubles.

If you leave out the randomisation, each expansion pack has the same cards.

Because this is a different business model than CCGs, Fantasy Flight named card games without random expansion sets, Living Card Games (LCG). Since LCG is trademarked however, other companies can't use that hence why a non-trademarked name for these types of games would be handy.

Plus with LCG/ECG games there's less of a collectible element since you aren't really hunting down rare cards hence why CCG is a misnomer for these types of games (in my opinion at least).
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Werner Bär
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Greyhaze wrote:
The Expandable Card Game (ECG) has a stand alone starter and can be mixed and matched with themed expansions. The themed expansions are not stand alone, but combining multiple expansions can give you enough play material to play the game.

There is no randomization in the decks (we removed this from our game), so it is not a CCG.

So we're talking games like Race for the Galaxy or Blue Moon? Maybe 7 Wonders?
 
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Jey Legarie
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Aenea wrote:
If you leave out the randomisation, each expansion pack has the same cards.

Because this is a different business model than CCGs, Fantasy Flight named card games without random expansion sets, Living Card Games (LCG). Since LCG is trademarked however, other companies can't use that hence why a non-trademarked name for these types of games would be handy.


Essentially this is the reason and the idea for ECG.
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Jey Legarie
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Werbaer wrote:
So we're talking games like Race for the Galaxy or Blue Moon? Maybe 7 Wonders?

I believe so, Dominion be for would for sure, Gloom, Munchkin, Thunderstones, which are classified like LCG, but we can not use this category.

PT 1 I was told by a moderator, when I emailed them, to post it here.

I would agree with PT 2 "themed" would not be necessary terminology.

PT 3, the collectible aspect in collectible has become synonymous with "random". So, Expandable would get away from this. Pokemon, MtG, Yugioh.

PT 5, I think the terminology CCG is identified by gamers as collectible in terms of randomized and collecting based on rarity.

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Greyhaze wrote:
Werbaer wrote:
So we're talking games like Race for the Galaxy or Blue Moon? Maybe 7 Wonders?

I believe so, Dominion be for would for sure, Gloom, Munchkin, Thunderstones, which are classified like LCG, but we can not use this category.

PT 1 I was told by a moderator, when I emailed them, to post it here.

I would agree with PT 2 "themed" would not be necessary terminology.

PT 3, the collectible aspect in collectible has become synonymous with "random". So, Expandable would get away from this. Pokemon, MtG, Yugioh.

PT 5, I think the terminology CCG is identified by gamers as collectible in terms of randomized and collecting based on rarity.


Thanks for additional explanation.

Expandable has nice tie in with the notion of an expansion for a boardgame. Any reason these shouldn't be "Card Game Expansions", which would a direct tie in the the overall notion of an expansion. So there is a base game and expansions. This would work well with the BGG database structure.

The definition in the CCG family should be reworked to highlight the random decks as a "almost universal feature".
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Steve Armitstead
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Greyhaze wrote:


The Expandable Card Game (ECG) has a stand alone starter and can be mixed and matched with themed expansions. The themed expansions are not stand alone, but combining multiple expansions can give you enough play material to play the game.



I really want to expand (no pun intended) on your description of your own game

If you buy the Starter and the five expansion packs you will have a complete set of all the cards in the correct quantity for each rarity i.e. 4 of each common, 3 of each infrequent, 2 of each uncommon and 1 of each rare. Also you will have all the adventurers and quests.

blush Sorry I couldn't help myself.

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Steve Armitstead
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herace wrote:
Greyhaze wrote:
Werbaer wrote:
So we're talking games like Race for the Galaxy or Blue Moon? Maybe 7 Wonders?

I believe so, Dominion be for would for sure, Gloom, Munchkin, Thunderstones, which are classified like LCG, but we can not use this category.

PT 1 I was told by a moderator, when I emailed them, to post it here.

I would agree with PT 2 "themed" would not be necessary terminology.

PT 3, the collectible aspect in collectible has become synonymous with "random". So, Expandable would get away from this. Pokemon, MtG, Yugioh.

PT 5, I think the terminology CCG is identified by gamers as collectible in terms of randomized and collecting based on rarity.


Thanks for additional explanation.

Expandable has nice tie in with the notion of an expansion for a boardgame. Any reason these shouldn't be "Card Game Expansions", which would a direct tie in the the overall notion of an expansion. So there is a base game and expansions. This would work well with the BGG database structure.

The definition in the CCG family should be reworked to highlight the random decks as a "almost universal feature".


If a new family, ECG, cannot be established, I quite like your idea of calling it a Base Game, which it is, and expansions*, which they sort of are, on BGG. Certainly the Mines of Khurgan is a true expansion for the base game. *(I say 'sort of' because they contain mostly cards from the Starter plus some others from the complete set. I am not sure that expansions for base games normally do that?)

Then it could be removed from CCGs, but remain listed under Customisable games.





 
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StevesArmy wrote:
If a new family, ECG, cannot be established, I quite like your idea of calling it a Base Game, which it is, and expansions*, which they sort of are, on BGG. Certainly the Mines of Khurgan is a true expansion for the base game. *(I say 'sort of' because they contain mostly cards from the Starter plus some others from the complete set. I am not sure that expansions for base games normally do that?)

Then it could be removed from CCGs, but remain listed under Customisable games.


Actually Card Game with Expansions (CGE) makes more sense linguistically I think. So the base game and its expansions would be members of the family.

This would be a subclass of the category Collectible Components.
 
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I submitted 4 name corrections for the existing family names. I'll let you know what happens...

This was in the information to admin with name correction in each of the 4 cases. (ugh, yes I misspelled butchered the spelling of "mutually" )

Quote:
These are all multually exclusive) subclasses of "Collectible Components". Keep them together in the family list. 4 corrections submitted.

Collectible Components: Collectible Card Games (CCG)
Collectible Components: Collectible Dice Games (CDG)
Collectible Components: Collectible Miniatures Games (CMG)
Collectible Components: Collectible Token Game (CTG)


The point is that this would keep these four items together instead of scattered throughout the family list.
 
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Jey Legarie
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I feel like there are two very different conversations going on in this thread. laugh

To me E-C-G flows better than C-G-E, however, I've been using the term for years, so it might just be a conditioning thing.

Although the expansions are collectible in the sense that you can add them on just like a randomized booster pack, I strongly believe the connotation of collectible = randomized. I'm sure I'm not alone on this. If I could change the markets thinking of this I would, but it's been around so long I believe it would be fruitless to make the attempt.

Including the word "collectible" then by default creates confusion with the design/set up of the living/expandable game setup in question.

The expandable board games like Descent would/should fit in to this category, but of course for board games.
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Jey Legarie
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StevesArmy wrote:
If you buy the Starter and the five expansion packs you will have a complete set of all the cards in the correct quantity for each rarity i.e. 4 of each common, 3 of each infrequent, 2 of each uncommon and 1 of each rare. Also you will have all the adventurers and quests.

This might be unique to our game though.

I'm thinking in more generalized terms.
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Greyhaze wrote:
I feel like there are two very different conversations going on in this thread. laugh


Not trying to take this off on a tangent. But the BGG database and GUI already use the word "expansion". It just seems awkward, and unnecessary, to inject "expandable" too.

So if Expandable Card Game (ECG) is the industry recognized term so be it. But for BGG documentation it just doesn't make sense to use phrases like
* expandable game
* expanded game
* expandability of the game
if you can avoid it, when the notion of an expansion is something that you're trying to give a specific meaning.
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Jey Legarie
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herace wrote:
Expandable has nice tie in with the notion of an expansion for a boardgame. Any reason these shouldn't be "Card Game Expansions", which would a direct tie in the the overall notion of an expansion. So there is a base game and expansions. This would work well with the BGG database structure.

I missed this point earlier...

In my experience; TCG is trading "card game", CCG is collectible "card game", LCG is living "card game", so to follow suit ECG - expandable card game seemed to make sense.
 
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herace wrote:
Not trying to take this off on a tangent. But the BGG database and GUI already use the word "expansion". It just seems awkward, and unnecessary, to inject "expandable" too.

So if Expandable Card Game (ECG) is the industry recognized term so be it. But for BGG documentation it just doesn't make sense to use phrases like
* expandable game
* expanded game
* expandability of the game
if you can avoid it, when the notion of an expansion is something that you're trying to give a specific meaning.

Honestly, and not to be difficult, but I don't know what the above database and GUI usage entails OR what making the new family entails on BGG. I'm new to this, so any guidance is appreciated.
 
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Greyhaze wrote:
herace wrote:
Not trying to take this off on a tangent. But the BGG database and GUI already use the word "expansion". It just seems awkward, and unnecessary, to inject "expandable" too.

So if Expandable Card Game (ECG) is the industry recognized term so be it. But for BGG documentation it just doesn't make sense to use phrases like
* expandable game
* expanded game
* expandability of the game
if you can avoid it, when the notion of an expansion is something that you're trying to give a specific meaning.

Honestly, and not to be difficult, but I don't know what the above database and GUI usage entails OR what making the new family entails on BGG. I'm new to this, so any guidance is appreciated.


If you look at game Twilight Struggle, in the Information section there is a field labeled Expansion. Clicking on one of the expansions will take to you to that expansion for Twilight Struggle.

For example you could chose Twilight Struggle: "Anni di Piombo" Promo Card, which in its Information section has a field labeled Exapnds where Twilight Struggle is linked. Also one of the Categories for the game is "Expansion for Base-game".

So the base game has links to all of its expansions, all expansions have a link back to base game, but expansions don't have links between themselves.
 
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Greyhaze wrote:
herace wrote:
Expandable has nice tie in with the notion of an expansion for a boardgame. Any reason these shouldn't be "Card Game Expansions", which would a direct tie in the the overall notion of an expansion. So there is a base game and expansions. This would work well with the BGG database structure.

I missed this point earlier...

In my experience; TCG is trading "card game", CCG is collectible "card game", LCG is living "card game", so to follow suit ECG - expandable card game seemed to make sense.


I really do think we need to have a different family from collectible/living/tradeable card games.

TCG and CCG are self explanatory; LCG is not, but it is a good name for a good concept. I think that ECG similarly is a good name for a good concept, but it isn't logically the most descriptive. 'Expandable' does not say anything unique about your concept. I think 'expandable' can apply to nearly any commercially available game, so it is possibly too generic for a distinct and select group of games.

We need a common concept that can group games with DC, as I think you mentioned above. Maybe 'customisable card game' is a better family name, as a main concept is that you can customise the dungeon in DC, not just the player's deck? (A minor drawback is that 'customisable card game' shares the same acronym, i.e. CCG, as collectible card games.)

By the way, I am not suggesting you change using ECG in your game's description; it's only on BGG there needs to be an different name for a non-collectible/non-trading card game family. I really like the name and the acronym, ECG; I have just changed my opinion that it is the most acceptable name for a BGG game family. However, if ECG is accepted as a new family name I will not object.




 
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Jey Legarie
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laugh

Well, glad we had this discussion.

Even if we have an accord in this thread, I'm not certain how we move from this stage to the next. Is there a voting process? Is it submitted to someone?
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Steve Armitstead
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I would say the next step is to contact the Admin who advised you to open this post, include the link, and ask "what next?"

By the way, after all this discussion what do you think should happen?

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Jey Legarie
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I still feel that a new category is needed.

It does sound like there are a lot of existing terminologies that are interfering with ECG.

But, something should be made.
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Steve Armitstead
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Yes I agree with you.

My curiosity peaked, I did some searches and there are quite a few customisable card games on BGG, but as far as I could tell your model is still unique.

So there is evidence of need for a new family (or even two) either way.

Come on BGG! Let's get this done!

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Kieran Quinn
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Bump.

Please, someone, get this done. Many people, like myself, have absolutely no interest in CCGs or randomly collectable card games, yet we do have an interest in ECGs or non-randomly expandable card games. We need to be able to classify games this way so that we can filter out the CCGs.
 
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