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Subject: Breaking all subroutines vs no subroutines ICE rss

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Oscar Iglesias
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When runner do not break Chum:
Chum
Type: ICE: Code Gate
Cost: 1
Faction: Corp Jinteki
Faction Cost: 1
The next piece of ice the Runner encounters during this run has +2 strength. Do 3 net damage unless the Runner breaks all subroutines on that piece of ice.
"You ever get that feeling like you're shark food? Pay attention to that feeling." - Ji "Noise" Reilly
Strength: 4

And after that he encounters something with 0 subroutines, like a Ireress with no BP:
Ireress
Type: ICE: Code Gate
Cost: 0
Faction: Corp The Weyland Consortium
Faction Cost: 1
Ireress gains "[Subroutine] The Runner loses 1 [Credits]." for each bad publicity you have.
Say it really fast.
Strength: 2

Because Ireress got 0 subroutines have the runner break all of them, or is he unable to fulfill the chum requirement because there are no routines to break?
 
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Ony Moose
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If you break 0 of 0 subroutines, you have broken all of them. In the latest FAQ it clarifies that all includes zero.
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Oscar Iglesias
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Kandiru wrote:
If you break 0 of 0 subroutines, you have broken all of them. In the latest FAQ it clarifies that all includes zero.


Thanks.

I copy it here for future reference

Netrunner FAQ, page 2 wrote:
Terminology
All
The word “all” includes the number zero.
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Derrick Billings
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There is a great deal of ambiguity right now if you *bypass* a Chummed piece of ice while it has 0 subroutines. I went hammer and tongs on this subject on Facebook about a month ago, and when I sent it to Lukas he says it will be addressed in the next FAQ.

For the time being, the ruling on the ground is that if you bypass, you don't break any subroutines, therefore you broke 0 subroutines, therefore you broke the correct number of subroutines.

(I hope this gets reversed because IMHO it doesn't make much sense.)
 
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Brodie
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I guess my question is, why in the world would you ever bypass a Chummed piece of ice with 0 subroutines? Just encounter it and walk through its 0 subroutines so Chum is satisfied.
 
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Harris Enniss
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Agent Archer wrote:
I guess my question is, why in the world would you ever bypass a Chummed piece of ice with 0 subroutines? Just encounter it and walk through its 0 subroutines so Chum is satisfied.


You bypass Komainu before it gets its subroutines. This makes it an excellent Femme target. You can bypass it for 0.

Grimwalker wrote:
There is a great deal of ambiguity right now if you *bypass* a Chummed piece of ice while it has 0 subroutines. I went hammer and tongs on this subject on Facebook about a month ago, and when I sent it to Lukas he says it will be addressed in the next FAQ.

For the time being, the ruling on the ground is that if you bypass, you don't break any subroutines, therefore you broke 0 subroutines, therefore you broke the correct number of subroutines.


I don't see how there could possibly be any other interpretation.
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Marty Kay
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henniss wrote:
Agent Archer wrote:
I guess my question is, why in the world would you ever bypass a Chummed piece of ice with 0 subroutines? Just encounter it and walk through its 0 subroutines so Chum is satisfied.


You bypass Komainu before it gets its subroutines. This makes it an excellent Femme target. You can bypass it for 0.


Netrunner FAQ 1.4 wrote:
“Bypass”
When an effect allows the Runner to “bypass” a piece of ice,
he immediately passes that ice and continues the run. Any
subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken. Bypassing
prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their
trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.

Example: The Runner encounters a piece of ice that she can
bypass with Femme Fatale. The last piece of ice the Runner
encountered was Chum, whose subroutine the Runner did not
break. The Runner pays to bypass the current piece of ice with
Femme Fatale, and takes 3 net damage from Chum’s ability, since
subroutines on bypassed ice are not broken.


Bypass does NOT break subroutines according to the FAQ.
"Any subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken."
"Any includes the number zero" therefore
"Zero subroutines on the ice bypassed are not broken"

Okay, say this ICE existed:
Waste of Time: strength 1, cost 1
flavor text

That's it. No subroutines. It is blank.

Chum -> Waste of Time
You CAN'T break the subroutines because they aren't there.

the FAQ again, pg5 75 Chum wrote:
• Chum deals its net damage the first time either of the
following occur during an encounter with the next piece of
ice:
1) a subroutine resolves
2) the encounter/run ends


DURING an encounter if a subroutine resolves, Chum deals damage.
DURING an encounter, if the encounter ends, Chum deals damage.
Encounter a blank ICE, no subroutines, exit that ICE and it is the end of the encounter, therefore Chum deals damage.

BYPASSING the ICE does ENCOUNTER the ICE.

So Chum item 2 seems to say that Chum would in fact trigger on a blank Komainu.

Pity I was trying to prove the opposite.
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Ony Moose
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Chum does no damage with a 0 advanced woodcutter, I don't think a blank Komainu would be any different. Just because you are bypassing doesn't mean you haven't broken all of the subroutines; just the act of bypassing itself doesn't break any subroutines.
 
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Marty Kay
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Just occured to me that the ruling (and FAQ item) where it states "Any includes zero" is a problem.

If you go into the grocers and ask "Do you have any apples?" you wouldn't expect "Yes" to mean that they have 0 apples.





 
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Roberta Yang
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martykay wrote:
Just occured to me that the ruling (and FAQ item) where it states "Any includes zero" is a problem.

If you go into the grocers and ask "Do you have any apples?" you wouldn't expect "Yes" to mean that they have 0 apples.

I agree, that would be pretty dumb if the FAQ actually said that. But it doesn't. It says "all" includes 0, not "any".

martykay wrote:
So Chum item 2 seems to say that Chum would in fact trigger on a blank Komainu.

False. Chum item 2 only says Chum fires when the encounter/run ends if you didn't break all the subroutines. But you did, because there were no subroutines to break, so you broke all 0 subroutines.
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Allan Clements
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If the Grocer has 0 apples. Then you have both eaten them all, and eaten none.

That is the logic that chum uses, and works out fine in all cases.
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Marty Kay
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Thank you for that. My mistake, reading it as "Any". Yes, it says ALL. Which makes much more sense.

Plus re-reading the card helped. Even though the FAQ only covered subroutines resolving OR the encounter ending, the card flat out says it occurs UNLESS all the subroutines are broken so the FAQ wording that way is to cover the effect of bypass abilities ie Femme Fatale.

 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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salty53 wrote:
martykay wrote:
So Chum item 2 seems to say that Chum would in fact trigger on a blank Komainu.

False. Chum item 2 only says Chum fires when the encounter/run ends if you didn't break all the subroutines. But you did, because there were no subroutines to break, so you broke all 0 subroutines.

QFT!
(The other part is also true, by the way)
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Derrick Billings
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My main objection is that since bypass explicitly says you don't break subroutines, and step 3.2 in which you'd break all zero subroutines never happens, then almost tautologically, bypassing a Chummed Piece of ice should cause Chum to trigger, and the number of subroutines the ice does or doesn't have is never even a factor. I feel that this is more logical and elegant under the existing rules architecture.

Yes, "all includes zero." But you specifically didn't break all subroutines, you didn't break any subroutines, therefore you didn't break zero subroutines. This is distinct from the Chum/Woodcutter example because you didn't actually walk through and break its 0 subs.

I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I got an acknowledgement from Lukas, I don't expect him to contradict an existing ruling that's out in the field, and I can be patient until the next FAQ settles the issue.
 
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Harris Enniss
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Grimwalker wrote:
My main objection is that since bypass explicitly says you don't break subroutines, and step 3.2 in which you'd break all zero subroutines never happens, then almost tautologically, bypassing a Chummed Piece of ice should cause Chum to trigger, and the number of subroutines the ice does or doesn't have is never even a factor. I feel that this is more logical and elegant under the existing rules architecture.


There is a concept which is far older and more fundamental than anything in Netrunner, of vacuous truth. If we have some property, and we ask "do all elements of the empty set have this property?" the answer is always yes, regardless of what that property is. So you're right: all subroutines are unbroken. Also all subroutines are broken. Also, all subroutines are cats. These are vacuously true, because there are no subroutines.

Chum asks "are all subroutines broken?" If there are no subroutines, the answer is always yes, so Chum does not fire. If Chum said "do three net damage unless all subroutines are unbroken", it would also not fire, because all subroutines are unbroken.
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Derrick Billings
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henniss wrote:
Grimwalker wrote:
My main objection is that since bypass explicitly says you don't break subroutines, and step 3.2 in which you'd break all zero subroutines never happens, then almost tautologically, bypassing a Chummed Piece of ice should cause Chum to trigger, and the number of subroutines the ice does or doesn't have is never even a factor. I feel that this is more logical and elegant under the existing rules architecture.


There is a concept which is far older and more fundamental than anything in Netrunner, of vacuous truth. If we have some property, and we ask "do all elements of the empty set have this property?" the answer is always yes, regardless of what that property is. So you're right: all subroutines are unbroken. Also all subroutines are broken. Also, all subroutines are cats. These are vacuously true, because there are no subroutines.

Chum asks "are all subroutines broken?" If there are no subroutines, the answer is always yes, so Chum does not fire. If Chum said "do three net damage unless all subroutines are unbroken", it would also not fire, because all subroutines are unbroken.


ZOMG I'VE NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE.

The only dog I have in this fight is that I'm sick to death of armchair philosophers hollering about "vacuous truth" every frakking time this comes up. If one has to look up obscure concepts in Wikipedia just to play the game, then we have a situation where the FAQ needs to nail it to the floor.
 
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Bradley Galbraith
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Obscure concept? "Armchair philosopher"? He provided a sound explanation for a sensible ruling.
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Derrick Billings
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PaxCecilia wrote:
Obscure concept? "Armchair philosopher"? He provided a sound explanation for a sensible ruling.


And I've provided an explanation for why the Vacuous Truth line of argument that comes up in the context of Chum/Woodcutter doesn't apply.

Bypass specifically says in the FAQ you do not break any subroutines. Because of that, as I read the rules and the timing structure, the run should automatically return a "yes" to Chum's question instantaneously, and the question of whether the set is empty or not is irrelevant, because that only is checked in Step 3.2 which never happens.

People are so used to reflexively copy/pasting that wikipedia link whenever Chum is paired with 0 subroutines that they don't stop to think whether it truly applies.

As it stands we have this confusing and counterintuitive situation where you didn't break subroutines at all but when the encounter ends you magically go back to 3.2 and count all 0 subroutines as having been broken, which I don't find sound and sensible at all.


 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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You don't go back to any place. Chum asks "Is there at least one unbroken subroutine on the ICE?" The answer is no, so it doesn't trigger.

The concept of vacuous truth is not armchair philosophy. It's the only way that sayings about an empty set of objects can be made to make consistent sense, without running into contradictions.
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Bradley Galbraith
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I don't think that there's any ambiguity. Here's what I make of it. If the timings aren't correct please let me know, because this makes sense to me based on what Lukas has provided:

First off, if there are no subroutines, then they have all been broken. This is ruled upon, cool.

What I disagree with is that Chum "only is checked in Step 3.2".

FAQ Entry for Chum (forgive awkward line breaks from copy/paste)

"75 Chum
If the Runner jacks out immediately after encountering a
Chum and not breaking its subroutine, the Runner does not
take any damage.
Chum deals its net damage the first time either of the
following occur during an encounter with the next piece of
ice:
1) a subroutine resolves
2) the encounter/run ends"

Emphasis mine. No subroutines resolve, since they've been bypassed, so Chum will resolve when the encounter ends. If the encounter ends via bypass, it skips at 3.0 (or maybe 3.1?, regardless it's before the 3.2 when Chum would ordinarily trigger), then it immediately goes to [2] or [4]. Chum then checks if all subroutines were broken. If there are more than 0 subroutines, the runner will take damage, otherwise not.
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Derrick Billings
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azuredarkness wrote:
Chum asks "Is there at least one unbroken subroutine on the ICE?" The answer is no, so it doesn't trigger.


Chum says "unless the runner breaks all subroutines." You run into problems when you start changing up the wording and introducing concepts outside the scope of the rules framework.

Bypass says that you do not break any subroutines. The step in which you would break all subroutines never takes place. Those plain facts necessarily cause Chum to fire, in my opinion.

It's unlikely you can say anything to me on this subject I haven't heard before. I'm sticking to my opinion until the next FAQ comes out, at which time I'll be assured that the matter is resolved to the degree that it's working as intended and these discussions will be irrelevant.

I can see both sides, don't get me wrong. I can toggle them in my mind, flipping from one interpretation to the other. I simply find one more elegant and coherent. I can even argue from a "Rules As Intended" perspective (even though I normally eschew such opinion-based arguments) because their go-to example for what makes Chum fire is a Femme Bypass.

 
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Grimwalker wrote:
Bypass says that you do not break any subroutines. The step in which you would break all subroutines never takes place. Those plain facts necessarily cause Chum to fire, in my opinion.

If you go to the greengrocer, see that he has no apples for sale, and turn to leave, have you bought all of the greengrocer's apples? Your argument says no - not until you have walked up to the till, which is normally where you purchase the apples, have you bought all the apples. Why does where in the room I am standing matter? The bare fact is that no apples remain to be purchased.

Grimwalker wrote:
It's unlikely you can say anything to me on this subject I haven't heard before. I'm sticking to my opinion until the next FAQ comes out, at which time I'll be assured that the matter is resolved to the degree that it's working as intended and these discussions will be irrelevant.

*sticks fingers in ears* LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
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Derrick Billings
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Mock all you want, but remember I prefaced this entire line of argument by saying that it was already argued to death a month ago, and nobody on this thread has presented anything I haven't heard before. Being unconvinced is not the same as not listening.
 
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Bradley Galbraith
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Is there anything you find questionable with the timing order I wrote above? I think the FAQ for Chum that I posted explains why it won't do damage to the runner after bypassing a 0 subroutine ice.

can you link the previous thread? I looked back a few pages and I couldn't find it.
 
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Grimwalker wrote:
Mock all you want, but remember I prefaced this entire line of argument by saying that it was already argued to death a month ago, and nobody on this thread has presented anything I haven't heard before. Being unconvinced is not the same as not listening.


Why are we arguing at all? We have a ruling. Some people like it, some people don't, but it's unambiguous as to how we should actually play today, correct?

Chumming a bypassed Komainu / Woodcutter is pretty rare - right? Does this influence your deck decisions?

Keep calm and respawn.
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