Ken Knott
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Ok, I'm a little confused about the implications of the various card actions...

I'll start with Banish - Simplest.. It goes back into the box and is never seen again - unless drawn again for another scenario.

Discard - Goes into the discard pile. Might come back if you are allowed to retrieve cards from the discard pile.

Bury - Goes under your character card... Not sure how this is different relative to banish except you get it back maybe after the scenario?

Recharge - Goes back into the deck and you'll eventually get to play it again...

If your deck runs out (ie all cards are discarded, banished or buried) you die??

Do you get to shuffle your discard deck back into your hand ever?

Can someone sort of put this all into context and explain the 'significance' of each?
 
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Javaslinger wrote:
I'll start with Banish - Simplest.. It goes back into the box and is never seen again - unless drawn again for another scenario.
I agree - but never been certain if it gets shuffled into the other cards of it's type, so it might get drawn again this scenario. I don't think so.
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Discard - Goes into the discard pile. Might come back if you are allowed to retrieve cards from the discard pile.
Agreed
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Bury - Goes under your character card... Not sure how this is different relative to banish except you get it back maybe after the scenario?
That is the difference, and it's an important one if the card is a rare one - as cards that have a 'bury' action usually are!
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Recharge - Goes back into the deck and you'll eventually get to play it again...
Not 'in' the deck, but on the bottom of it.
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If your deck runs out (ie all cards are discarded, banished or buried) you die??
If you have to draw a new card and the deck is empty, you die. having an empty deck does not, in itself, mean death.
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Do you get to shuffle your discard deck back into your hand ever?
I've never seen an effect that shuffles the whole discard pile back in (unless it's a discard pile of only a few cards anyway), but various Cure spells, etc will allow you to return a few. Usually you shuffle the discard pile, randomly draw a certain number (1d4 for a Cure spell) then shuffle those back into the deck. This is the best way to get Recharged cards back into play, as it gets them off the bottom of the deck!
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Matthew M
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Javaslinger wrote:


Bury - Goes under your character card... Not sure how this is different relative to banish except you get it back maybe after the scenario?


Pretty much. Buried cards can be used to rebuild your decks at the end of the game, but you won't get them back during that game.

Quote:
Recharge - Goes back into the deck and you'll eventually get to play it again...


Specifically, it goes to the bottom of the deck. You may get it back, and it helps prevent you from dying.

Quote:
If your deck runs out (ie all cards are discarded, banished or buried) you die??


More specifically, if you need to draw a card and don't have a card available to draw, you die.

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Do you get to shuffle your discard deck back into your hand ever?


Only if a card effect allows it (typically from healing powers)


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Craig S.
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Banished cards are immediately shuffled into their appropriate stack in the box, unless their banishment leads to their complete removal from the game per the rule on the RotRL adventure path card.
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Octavian wrote:
[...]
Quote:
If your deck runs out (ie all cards are discarded, banished or buried) you die??


More specifically, if you need to draw a card and don't have a card available to draw, you die.[...]
Clarification: If at any point you have to remove a card from your character deck for whatever reason, whether it be to draw it, an effect says to 'discard the top card of your character deck' or something like 'banish a random card from your character deck,' or anything else that removes a card from your character deck and you cannot do so because you do not have a card there, then the character dies.

It's not just drawing that can do it. That was clarified in the FAQ/Errata.
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Javaslinger wrote:
Can someone sort of put this all into context and explain the 'significance' of each?


I will try, although I have gotten into some accidental debates by doing so.

It is never explained anywhere just what the significance of any of the game mechanics are in the world of Pathfinder. But the designers obviously had some things in mind when they were working. For example, Lini's power that allows her to discard a card to roll a d10 for her strength or dexterity has been described by Mike Selinker as her "turning into a bear," and this is consistent with her flavor text in the rule book. But the power on her card does not say this. Instead you are pretty much free to imagine that this power is doing whatever you want (If she becomes a Shapeshifter and can add the fire trait to this power, is she now turning into a dragon or is she some kind of "fire bear?") With that in mind, here are some of my thoughts on the significance of these various actions. (Most of this is informed by trying to come up with a consistent understanding of certain cards, like Mending and Token of Remembrance. Also, I prefer to think of spells as incantations that can be easily forgotten (by the power of the spell's magic) rather than scrolls, as some people prefer.)

Banish: the card is permanently gone. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is broken beyond repair or lost. If the card is a spell, then the incantation is completely wiped from memory. If the card is an ally, then that ally is dead or has fled. If the card is a blessing, then you have angered that god or gods, and you will no longer receive their favor.

Bury: the card is gone for the day, but will be back tomorrow. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is slightly damaged such that it can be repaired by a skilled craftsman in the next town, or the magic of the item can only be used once per day (like the Holy Candle or the Medusa Mask). If the card is a spell, then the incantation is forgotten but will be remembered the following day, or the magic of the spell can only be used once a day (like Charm Person). If the card is an ally, then that ally is incapacitated for some reason (perhaps a minor injury), but the ally will be ready for action again tomorrow. If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a big favor, and will not favor you again today.

Discard: the card is still "with you," but is not ready for action right now for some reason, and may or may not be ready for action again today. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is not immediately available for use for some reason: a strap on the armor has snapped and you haven't yet been able to retie it, the sword is slightly dulled and you need a moment to sharpen it, or maybe the Thieves' Tools are slightly bent and you haven't yet had a moment to straighten them. If the card is a spell, then the incantation is momentarily forgotten, but it is still "just on the tip of your brain," so you might remember it again today. If the card is an ally, then that ally may or may not be out of action for the rest of the day (stunned, perhaps). If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a medium-sized favor, and may or may not favor you again today.

Recharge: the card is still "with you," but is not ready for action right now for some reason, but it will be ready for action again today. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then maybe it has simply been stowed away. If the card is a spell, then you remember the incantation but you cannot perform the spell right now for some reason (perhaps your hands are full of other things so you cannot do the necessary gestures, or something like that). If the card is an ally, then that ally is distracted with other things, or has lagged behind, or something like that. If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a slight favor and are willing to grant you further favors today.

Anyway, that is my take on it.
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Very interesting... Combining all of this with the idea that the 'deck' is your hit points is another mechanic that is more clear now. So recharging is clearly helping you in the sense of lifetime. Discarding is nearly as bad as bury except in the case of healing, etc.

It's clear to me now that you really can't afford to take a lot of 'wounds' etc...
 
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Javaslinger wrote:
It's clear to me now that you really can't afford to take a lot of 'wounds' etc...
One effect of the game design is that, barring some rare & powerful effects, if you can reset your entire hand - that is, if you have more cards in your deck than your hand size - you can't die from the effects of a single check. Any one check can (normally...) only discard cards from your hand. It is, therefore, actually useful to recharge cards if you think you're going to fail a Combat or other check that results in damage. Even if the extra damage from Recharging that dagger won't make a damn of difference when you'll fall 10 or more short of the required check, it will remove the dagger from your hand, and reduce the damage that can be done to you. If you're doomed to failure anyway, try to face it with an empty hand.
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
It is, therefore, actually useful to recharge cards if you think you're going to fail a Combat or other check that results in damage. Even if the extra damage from Recharging that dagger won't make a damn of difference when you'll fall 10 or more short of the required check, it will remove the dagger from your hand, and reduce the damage that can be done to you. If you're doomed to failure anyway, try to face it with an empty hand.
That's not what's happening when you recharge: you're throwing the thing in a last grandstanding effort - hoping you'll live long enough to find the darn thing on the ground after the combat. There's a million ways of describing it thematically that are better than describing it mechanistically as though you were "gaming the system"
 
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From what I understood, the OP was worried about mechanical significance of each, not the thematic implications.
 
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pinkymadigan wrote:
From what I understood, the OP was worried about mechanical significance of each, not the thematic implications.
And... I'm asleep already.
 
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mccrispy wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
From what I understood, the OP was worried about mechanical significance of each, not the thematic implications.
And... I'm asleep already.

Neat, I'm boring for attempting to be helpful by clarify the OP's position.
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Chad Brown
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I often describe it something like this:

Reveal: You show everyone that you have this card, and then it goes back into your hand. This is something that you can do over and over again.

Recharge: This also represents a resource that you can use multiple times, but not right away - it takes a little time for it to be ready again. It also represents a resource that you can use without hurting your over-all health.

Shuffle into your deck: Some powers shuffle cards into your deck. In practice, this is similar to Recharge, but with some added uncertainty.

Discard: When you use this play-action, you put this card in your discard pile, and it stays there until something takes it out. Moving cards from your discard pile to your deck is the basis for healing in the game.

Bury: Put the card under your character card, out of the way. For the most part, it's gone for the game, but not gone for good - you get it back when you refine your deck between sessions. These often represent "once per day" resources. One subtle difference between this play-action and Discard is that buried cards aren't available for healing, reducing your effective maximum health. Late in the adventure path, this can become a serious problem.

Banish: Gone for good. The card goes back into the box, and the only way to get it back is to find it again in a scenario. In later adventures, some cards can be removed from the game when they're banished, making way for better and worse cards.

Some cards are also Displayed, which means that they sit in front of your for a period of time. Usually, these cards use one of the actions above (discard, recharge, etc) when that time is up.

I hope that helps. Thanks for playing!
 
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mccrispy wrote:
There's a million ways of describing it thematically that are better than describing it mechanistically as though you were "gaming the system"
Name 346.
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
There's a million ways of describing it thematically that are better than describing it mechanistically as though you were "gaming the system"
Name 346.
well at least you recognise that there's at least 345 if you set 346 as the 'stretch'
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brayle wrote:
Javaslinger wrote:
Can someone sort of put this all into context and explain the 'significance' of each?


I will try, although I have gotten into some accidental debates by doing so.

It is never explained anywhere just what the significance of any of the game mechanics are in the world of Pathfinder. But the designers obviously had some things in mind when they were working. For example, Lini's power that allows her to discard a card to roll a d10 for her strength or dexterity has been described by Mike Selinker as her "turning into a bear," and this is consistent with her flavor text in the rule book. But the power on her card does not say this. Instead you are pretty much free to imagine that this power is doing whatever you want (If she becomes a Shapeshifter and can add the fire trait to this power, is she now turning into a dragon or is she some kind of "fire bear?") With that in mind, here are some of my thoughts on the significance of these various actions. (Most of this is informed by trying to come up with a consistent understanding of certain cards, like Mending and Token of Remembrance. Also, I prefer to think of spells as incantations that can be easily forgotten (by the power of the spell's magic) rather than scrolls, as some people prefer.)

Banish: the card is permanently gone. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is broken beyond repair or lost. If the card is a spell, then the incantation is completely wiped from memory. If the card is an ally, then that ally is dead or has fled. If the card is a blessing, then you have angered that god or gods, and you will no longer receive their favor.

Bury: the card is gone for the day, but will be back tomorrow. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is slightly damaged such that it can be repaired by a skilled craftsman in the next town, or the magic of the item can only be used once per day (like the Holy Candle or the Medusa Mask). If the card is a spell, then the incantation is forgotten but will be remembered the following day, or the magic of the spell can only be used once a day (like Charm Person). If the card is an ally, then that ally is incapacitated for some reason (perhaps a minor injury), but the ally will be ready for action again tomorrow. If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a big favor, and will not favor you again today.

Discard: the card is still "with you," but is not ready for action right now for some reason, and may or may not be ready for action again today. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is not immediately available for use for some reason: a strap on the armor has snapped and you haven't yet been able to retie it, the sword is slightly dulled and you need a moment to sharpen it, or maybe the Thieves' Tools are slightly bent and you haven't yet had a moment to straighten them. If the card is a spell, then the incantation is momentarily forgotten, but it is still "just on the tip of your brain," so you might remember it again today. If the card is an ally, then that ally may or may not be out of action for the rest of the day (stunned, perhaps). If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a medium-sized favor, and may or may not favor you again today.

Recharge: the card is still "with you," but is not ready for action right now for some reason, but it will be ready for action again today. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then maybe it has simply been stowed away. If the card is a spell, then you remember the incantation but you cannot perform the spell right now for some reason (perhaps your hands are full of other things so you cannot do the necessary gestures, or something like that). If the card is an ally, then that ally is distracted with other things, or has lagged behind, or something like that. If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a slight favor and are willing to grant you further favors today.

Anyway, that is my take on it.


I love this post. I may refer to it later when I describe what these words mean.
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mike selinker wrote:
brayle wrote:
Javaslinger wrote:
Can someone sort of put this all into context and explain the 'significance' of each?


I will try, although I have gotten into some accidental debates by doing so.

It is never explained anywhere just what the significance of any of the game mechanics are in the world of Pathfinder. But the designers obviously had some things in mind when they were working. For example, Lini's power that allows her to discard a card to roll a d10 for her strength or dexterity has been described by Mike Selinker as her "turning into a bear," and this is consistent with her flavor text in the rule book. But the power on her card does not say this. Instead you are pretty much free to imagine that this power is doing whatever you want (If she becomes a Shapeshifter and can add the fire trait to this power, is she now turning into a dragon or is she some kind of "fire bear?") With that in mind, here are some of my thoughts on the significance of these various actions. (Most of this is informed by trying to come up with a consistent understanding of certain cards, like Mending and Token of Remembrance. Also, I prefer to think of spells as incantations that can be easily forgotten (by the power of the spell's magic) rather than scrolls, as some people prefer.)

Banish: the card is permanently gone. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is broken beyond repair or lost. If the card is a spell, then the incantation is completely wiped from memory. If the card is an ally, then that ally is dead or has fled. If the card is a blessing, then you have angered that god or gods, and you will no longer receive their favor.

Bury: the card is gone for the day, but will be back tomorrow. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is slightly damaged such that it can be repaired by a skilled craftsman in the next town, or the magic of the item can only be used once per day (like the Holy Candle or the Medusa Mask). If the card is a spell, then the incantation is forgotten but will be remembered the following day, or the magic of the spell can only be used once a day (like Charm Person). If the card is an ally, then that ally is incapacitated for some reason (perhaps a minor injury), but the ally will be ready for action again tomorrow. If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a big favor, and will not favor you again today.

Discard: the card is still "with you," but is not ready for action right now for some reason, and may or may not be ready for action again today. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then it is not immediately available for use for some reason: a strap on the armor has snapped and you haven't yet been able to retie it, the sword is slightly dulled and you need a moment to sharpen it, or maybe the Thieves' Tools are slightly bent and you haven't yet had a moment to straighten them. If the card is a spell, then the incantation is momentarily forgotten, but it is still "just on the tip of your brain," so you might remember it again today. If the card is an ally, then that ally may or may not be out of action for the rest of the day (stunned, perhaps). If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a medium-sized favor, and may or may not favor you again today.

Recharge: the card is still "with you," but is not ready for action right now for some reason, but it will be ready for action again today. If the card is a weapon, an item, or an armor, then maybe it has simply been stowed away. If the card is a spell, then you remember the incantation but you cannot perform the spell right now for some reason (perhaps your hands are full of other things so you cannot do the necessary gestures, or something like that). If the card is an ally, then that ally is distracted with other things, or has lagged behind, or something like that. If the card is a blessing, then the god or gods have done you a slight favor and are willing to grant you further favors today.

Anyway, that is my take on it.


I love this post. I may refer to it later when I describe what these words mean.


Thanks, Mike. This just shows the lengths I will go to to make sure my world remains a place that makes logical sense. Feel free to steal any of this.arrrh
 
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