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Subject: Arena OP Captain's battle: can a player concede? rss

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Kenn Mikos
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So let's say I've built a fleet that doesn't even try to compete in the CB. Am I allowed to say, after round 3 ends, "I concede the Captain's battle. You win, here's my captains, start resetting the map."

I don't expect it would be allowed to shortcut the scenario that way, but I figured I'd see what you folks think...
 
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Val Cassotta
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I would imagine it will depend on your opponent. But, you may as well roll the dice - you might get lucky and take out at least 1 of the opposing captains
 
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Skyguard
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kemikos wrote:
So let's say I've built a fleet that doesn't even try to compete in the CB. Am I allowed to say, after round 3 ends, "I concede the Captain's battle. You win, here's my captains, start resetting the map."

I don't expect it would be allowed to shortcut the scenario that way, but I figured I'd see what you folks think...


I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to play it out just to see if you can kill one of your opponents captains, you never know when your dice just might get crazy hot and your opponent's will suck.

For a full answer on this you're really going to have to ask your TO, as their are very few OP rules that come down from Wizkids.

I would have a hard time saying yes to this personally.
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Val Cassotta
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I believe the 'why' is so they can focus on having as much time to wrap up the battle portion for the win. Every minute spent clearing the board, playing the CB and then setting up again is time away from wiping out the opposing fleet. A player who is counting on the capt battle may be playing for 'time' to win based on points.
 
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Will Sanchez
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If you save 5-10 minutes conceding the captains battle, you have 5-10 more minutes to hunt down their ships after the captains battle. Getting upto 4 extra rounds of space combat in can be a big difference between going to time and wiping out your opponents fleet.
 
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Conceding saves play time and might amount to as much as an extra round or two (???) of the battle in space. If that's where you expect to win the scenario, you want to get to that stage as soon as possible.

Personally, I think you should play out the Captain's battle. For one, the scenario rules tell you to play it out. If nothing else, I think TO should be consulted about the idea before the tournament begins.
 
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JustinKase wrote:
I believe the 'why' is so they can focus on having as much time to wrap up the battle portion for the win. Every minute spent clearing the board, playing the CB and then setting up again is time away from wiping out the opposing fleet. A player who is counting on the capt battle may be playing for 'time' to win based on points.


The Captain's battle is part of the scenario. Resolving it is not "playing for time." Stampeding your opponent through it, however, is playing for time.

Ideally, both players resolve each stage of the battle at the same, deliberate pace. No sandbagging. No stampeding.
 
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Justin Hare
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It's a mix between playing to win and being a good sport. There is no rule that says your opponent can't claim that they are 'thinking out moves' and never put a dial down after winning the planet. There's no sportsmanship rule.

For me, I have gotten to play at one venues and went 1-2. Both losses consisted of me losing the planet fight and running out of time trying to destroy my opponent's fleet. In both games, both of of my opponents moved quickly and didn't sandbag. In both games I was winning the post planet fleet battle. So I would give both of them a lot of credit for being good sports and giving me a chance to win after the battle.

I've built fleets based around winning the planet, losing the planet, and a balance. If I am clearly going to lose the planet battle (two 9s and three 7s vs two ones) I will concede the planet and offer to go straight to placement
 
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Skyguard
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JustinKase wrote:
I believe the 'why' is so they can focus on having as much time to wrap up the battle portion for the win. Every minute spent clearing the board, playing the CB and then setting up again is time away from wiping out the opposing fleet. A player who is counting on the capt battle may be playing for 'time' to win based on points.


Agree, that was really the only reason I could come up with and it's why I will not be allowing conceding the planet. As this to me seems the same as fast or slow playing for time.
 
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Justin Hare
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Skyguard wrote:
JustinKase wrote:
I believe the 'why' is so they can focus on having as much time to wrap up the battle portion for the win. Every minute spent clearing the board, playing the CB and then setting up again is time away from wiping out the opposing fleet. A player who is counting on the capt battle may be playing for 'time' to win based on points.


Agree, that was really the only reason I could come up with and it's why I will not be allowing conceding the planet. As this to me seems the same as fast or slow playing for time.


I don't see it the same, but can understand that view. I have an extreme dislike for sandbagging. The only reason I would frown upon someone speeding a game up is if they are doing it to deceive or confuse an opponent (or they are just being rude/a jerk/aggravating about it). I have been in a lot of games where I or an opponent have sped up near the end of agame to get a few more turns in.

I think the reasonable option with a fleet intending to lose the planet is to OFFER to an opponent to concede the planet. You're opponent gets the option and can choose to fight it out or not. Then, don't push it. You are asking an opponent to voluntairily make it harder for them the keep the win.

On the flip side. I believe the player who will cleanly win the planet (9 9 9 7 7 vs 1 1 kind of fight), should be decent and not sandbag. There aren't any rules against that and that does worry me a bit.
 
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Skyguard
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If a player is sandbagging then it's up to the other player to ask for a TO ruling. In my OP we never had it come up but I would give a warning on it to start and if it still continues call for a forfeit from the sandbagging player.

Really the planet action should only take a few mins as all you are doing is rolling attack dice, there isn't anything else other then using the elite attack dice or the 3 command tokens that can be used to do.

As for fast play I think it's harder to track then slow play, but a player should have an appropriate amount of time to set his/her dials and take the turn. The shouldn't change just because of the time left in the game.


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D Conklin
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My game strategy was to concede the planet. I played out the Captain's Battle as required, and in every case it was over in 2 mins or so....

What took a lot more time than I or anyone else anticipated was placement after the Captain's Battle. More than 5 mins in every case.

If anything, I would play the CB, but put timing restrictions on after-CB placement.
 
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Xander Fulton
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dc0nklin wrote:
What took a lot more time than I or anyone else anticipated was placement after the Captain's Battle. More than 5 mins in every case.


How?! Put one enemy ship in each corner, facing the corner. Build up your fleet around the most dangerous, facing it. Second most dangerous gets the planet right behind it. Enemy rotates the ships 180 degrees.

Ummm...done?
 
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All that still has to be measured to make sure it's outside of 4" to the edges, the planets, and other ships.

If a player uses a 'Straight 3' to assist in replacing the elements, there should be no question that everything is a little over 4" away from each other.
 
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James Patrick
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dc0nklin wrote:
My game strategy was to concede the planet. I played out the Captain's Battle as required, and in every case it was over in 2 mins or so....


I haven't played this out yet. In your opinion, is 2 minutes the overall average or was it quicker because you used a way smaller number of captains? Would a 4 on 4 captain's battle take longer? And if it IS 2 minutes, will those 2 minutes really be a game changer?
 
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Justin Gould
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I don't think I would have any issue with my opponent wanting to give up the planet. His build might be geared towards space combat but It's free points for me for every captain that came out and since he gave up the planet he gets nothing.

Also (almost) guarantees whatever captains I use (minus generic ones) will shoot first. Barring that my opponent plans on running nothing but ass tubes to take all my toys, I should still have the advantage.

Planning for battle on the planet, many players are trying to maximize the amount of captains/skill point ratio, so I can see where it is more advantageous to do a simple Klingon (or similar) build with very few upgrades if any at all.

So sure, I'll take free points and still have an advantage.
 
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Val Cassotta
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BradyLS wrote:
JustinKase wrote:
I believe the 'why' is so they can focus on having as much time to wrap up the battle portion for the win. Every minute spent clearing the board, playing the CB and then setting up again is time away from wiping out the opposing fleet. A player who is counting on the capt battle may be playing for 'time' to win based on points.


The Captain's battle is part of the scenario. Resolving it is not "playing for time." Stampeding your opponent through it, however, is playing for time.

Ideally, both players resolve each stage of the battle at the same, deliberate pace. No sandbagging. No stampeding.


It is part of the battle and part of the strategy. I am not being negative, but some people will aim to play out the clock and would not want to give up the Captain's battle. So IMHO - it could be part of a strategy in Playing for Time. On these very forums I have seen some strategies proposing playing hide and seek, and winning the Capt Battle, then playing some more hide and seek until time. Those players would certainly NOT concede the battle.

I personally would neither concede, nor ask someone to. I like to play the whole scenario for the fun of it
 
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Will Sanchez
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I was using 2 basic drones in the captains battle. they always died in the first 2 hits so my captain's battles were always over in < 1 minute
 
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D Conklin
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XanderF wrote:
dc0nklin wrote:
What took a lot more time than I or anyone else anticipated was placement after the Captain's Battle. More than 5 mins in every case.


How?! Put one enemy ship in each corner, facing the corner. Build up your fleet around the most dangerous, facing it. Second most dangerous gets the planet right behind it. Enemy rotates the ships 180 degrees.

Ummm...done?


Well, that is obvious to you and me....but everybody I played agonized over it. Not sure if it was over-thinking, or a reaction to the late rule change, or what.
 
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Charles Silbernagel
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As a TO at my local shop I'd say no. The captain's battle is not an optional part of the scenario.
 
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Kenn Mikos
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So we played our event last night, and someone who evidently reads the forums here brought it up to the TO before we started. His answer was no, the Captain's battle isn't optional.

For what it's worth, two of the opponents I played were running a pair of Skill 1's, and it really wouldn't have saved that much time at all. I think 2 minutes was a very generous estimate. Both times it was over in 2 rolls.

When both players are making a play for the Captain's battle, it takes a significantly longer time. My second round saw my opponent's 9-7-7 go up against my 9-9-8-6-4, and it took far longer - maybe 5-10 minutes? In that case, had skipping the battle been an option, it may very well have changed the outcome. I have no doubt that with an additional ten minutes, my opponent would have been able to wipe out my fleet.

On the other hand, I don't know that I would have taken the option in his place. If he had been able to knock off a captain or two, that might have made the difference as well. It would have been a gamble...

To answer another question in the thread, yes, in all cases the Aftermath took a while. It wasn't setting up the opponent's ships that took time (as has been said, corners, planet, done), but mine. Trying to place 5 ships in such a way that they're a) 4" apart b) 4" away from the edge & other ships, and c) able to take a maneuver that puts the fleet in a good firing position is frustrating and time consuming, and I didn't do it well at all the first time.

Edit: I realize that the placement issues were directly related to the size of my fleet. Obviously a 2-ship or even 3-ship fleet isn't going to have nearly as complicated a setup.
 
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The Jigsaw Man
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I addressed this with my players before the game, and offered them the opportunity to simply surrender, provided the opponent was willing to accept their surrender.

I don't believe I had anyone do so, even though several builds were obviously intended to loose the captain battle.
 
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