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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: Dial mistakes in OP's rss

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Jonathan M D Thomas
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So in an OP last night, in the second round, my opponent accidentally set his dial to a reverse 1 on the first turn, effectively flying his ship off the board. I made him go with the displayed maneuver (which is the rule) and effectively play the game down a ship and creamed him hard for it. I afterwards felt very bad for the guy and bad myself.

Clearly he intended to move forward; in a casual game I'd have let him put the ship wherever he wanted. Was it the right call to have him fly off of the board in an OP setting on the 1st turn? Clearly we played right by the rules, but did I make the right call? Ive had guys make moves that were close and flew off the board, but never such a clear cut mistake in an OP.
 
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Charles Silbernagel
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In a competitive event, the dial is what he chose, mistake or not. You may feel bad about making him stick to it, but I bet he'll never make that mistake again.
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Jeffery Fredrickson
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I would have let him fix it.

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Joel Stair
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on first move i would let everyone redo there dial in that case or everyone reset then reset dial.
Thats just me. But if they are a douchebag and has not let people do the same in other events i wouldn't let him.
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Thomas Blackwell
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jmdt784 wrote:
So in an OP last night, in the second round, my opponent accidentally set his dial to a reverse 1 on the first turn, effectively flying his ship off the board. I made him go with the displayed maneuver (which is the rule) and effectively play the game down a ship and creamed him hard for it. I afterwards felt very bad for the guy and bad myself.

Clearly he intended to move forward; in a casual game I'd have let him put the ship wherever he wanted. Was it the right call to have him fly off of the board in an OP setting on the 1st turn? Clearly we played right by the rules, but did I make the right call? Ive had guys make moves that were close and flew off the board, but never such a clear cut mistake in an OP.


I personally would have let him fix it. But I've also seen players enforce the rule. Notably a player with an APT making a red move in the Tholian Web. Little Science Vessel got to laugh as a Borg Sphere flew into the border.

If a player flips the dial over and immediately says 'oh crap, that's the wrong direction' and I see they are going to fly off the map, I let them change it.
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Daniel van de Laar
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There are two right answers. One has to do with the rules, and the other with what kind of person you want to be in life.

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Joel Stair
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Daniel i like that a lot.
Try to always take the high road.
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Daniel van de Laar
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dstair2002 wrote:
Daniel i like that a lot.
Try to always take the high road.


The air is thinner, but the sun is much brighter.
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Bob Anderson
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I have one ship that has an incredibly loose dial. I know that it's changed during the process of placing down and picking up. Really annoying.

When I play with that dial. I tell my opponent that I'm going to show it to them after they have planned all of their moves. That way there is no doubt if it was me who dialed it, or the loose dial spinning.
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Justin Chow
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Tough luck for that guy. I'll bet we've all been there, to one degree or another. Anyways, rule I try to play by in this game and in general:

The first one is free. Repeat offenders need not apply.
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Dan Ward
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Since it was an OP it was the right call. The only caveat I'd add would be to consider if he were a new player. I played against a new player (I believe only the second time he had ever played) in Round 2 of the same event, so I made sure to ask him to check his dial before we moved ships and to take his actions. I thought that was only fair since he was obviously struggling to manage all aspects of the game. Once he said he was sure of what he wanted to do then we moved on. I felt that gave him a chance not to make a stupid mistake that could cause him to not enjoy the game and not come back. If the player you faced was experienced then they should have been more careful. In the third round I did something similar with a Borg sphere. I didn't look at the ship carefully enough and ended up doing a reverse 2 when I should have done a forward 2. I played what was shown and probably lost the chance to destroy 2 ships and win the event. But I still had a great time!
 
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Nico
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paxzrake wrote:
I would have let him fix it.


^This. But as I only play casually, I really shouldn't come here and judge you: Especially if I knew the guy to be a hardass himself, I'd let him sail off the board. But in 99% of all cases I'd let him reset the dial if it was an honest (and obvious) mistake.

I like that you brought it up, Jonny! Cudos for that.
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Rob Tsuk
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There is absolutely, positively nothing wrong with playing games in organized play by the rules as written. It doesn't have anything to do with what kind of person you are in life.

In a tournament setting with multiple rounds you are ethically required to play to win. This includes, I'm afraid, making your opponent live with the consequences of their mistakes.
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Stephen Thorpe
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If it's a mistake then fair enough, but I sincerely doubt that someone would choose a Red reverse to take them off the board on the first turn.

It almost certainly would have been a case of the dial slipping and where this is obviously the case I wouldn't punish the person for having what is effectively a defective game component.
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Joel Stair
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Rob I like that also.
I guess if we play by the rules in life then when someone show us rules in the game we should also live my them.
 
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Dan Wilson
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Depends on my mood and the opponent. If it was Danvan, too bad for him.
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Noah Sager
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Alyksandyr wrote:
I have one ship that has an incredibly loose dial. I know that it's changed during the process of placing down and picking up. Really annoying.

When I play with that dial. I tell my opponent that I'm going to show it to them after they have planned all of their moves. That way there is no doubt if it was me who dialed it, or the loose dial spinning.


Grab one of those little black metal binder clips. Set your dial then clip it. You'll never have it change on you again.
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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Rahe Stone wrote:
Depends on my mood and the opponent. If it was Danvan, too bad for him.


Liar!

 
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Kevin Smith
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I would have let him fix it also.
I don't have any problems with a first turn "mulligan," and don't feel that I need that kind of edge to win anyway.
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Erin OConnor
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paxzrake wrote:
I would have let him fix it.


Good sportsmanship.

Helps build good karma.

You never know when you may be on the other end of a mistake.
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Rob Tsuk
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The more I brood about this, the more I think it's wrong to let your opponent in organized play break the rules because you think they made a mistake.

The thing is, this is organized play. As a participant, you aren't really allowed to decide what rules your opponent has to follow or not follow. You and they pretty much have to follow all of them. That's the only approach that's fair to everyone else playing that day.

If, though, doing this makes you feel really terrible, how about calling over the TO and asking them to rule on it? At least that way there will be some consistency across the games that day about what sorts of rule bending will be allowed.
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Nico
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When pressed for an answer, why I never have any intention of taking part in (well XWing,as there's no STAW OP events nearby) events at my FLGS, although I'm perfectly happy practicing with the guys before hand, and even defeating them more often then not, I couldn't really put my finger on it before, why I always said 'Thanks, but no thanks.'.

But thing's like this are probably it.

I really don't like the pressure this competitive setting is creating amongst the players. This need to win, because you gain something more then just fun and entertainment.

For me, gaming is a recreational thing.

Don't get me wrong, I like to win as much as the next guy, and play to win. But that's not the sole goal. It's definately not the most important one, or the that keeps me gaming. It's the time well spent that I'm after. In the company of others.

In the end, some of my most rewarding XW and STAW experiences I had, were from said games mission play.

During some of these nights, the decision who'd win or lose, literally came with the last dice rolls of the very last round.

It didn't really matter then, who scored that. It was the hours spend playing make-believe with old friends, that had already made it worth while and worthy of stories and songs

I've friends that share this view with me. But I get it, that that is not how everybody wants it have. That said, let me make it clear, that I respect the OP scene.

I respect the players and their efforts. To play to win. To compete with others. To build and figure out the best lists. To get prices.

It is just not the stlye of play for me, I'm afraid. Although I'm wanting the OP stuff and ships, but that's something else.

I do get your point, Rob, that enforcing the rules is not only fair but nonoptional in such an environment.
But if being a decent fellow on the table would be prohibited by the rules or the setting, I wouldn't be happy.
Aside from the pressure (wich I try to escape with gaming, anyway) my recreational value would fly out the next airlock due to that. Not good.

I do realise that - the few times I actually played semi-competetivly - that I had little trouble in losing against decently behaving players.

(I guess I'd always be cometing more for the fellowship prize at any event...^^).

Anyhow, I felt the strong need to shine (and win) against those people that where just being ... unfriendly and obnoxious, or rude in their behaviour, mostly towards weaker players.

In these cases I probably would have insisted on the red reverse being played out as laid down. Just to hold them off a little.

I've gotten carried away in one of those situations and behaved closely to the style of the gamer that I beat that night and whose behaviour (not the person) I dispised then. That was bad. I wasn't happy with myself.

But I don't want to be in such a position. It didn't feel good. Although I won. That's why Mission Gaming and Casual Gaming is for me.

No I might finally be able to name some reasons or explain it better when asked again. So thanks for bringing this up!

Sorry for the OT ramblings here... move along. Nothing more to see
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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Life is funny like that, some people choose to live up to what they believe to be a higher order of conduct and conscience than the rules for organized play require.

Seeing somebody be kind when he doesn't have to, only makes that kindness more precious - it doesn't obligate anyone to act in the same way, nor should anyone be made to feel small if such a kindness isn't something they'd be willing to show in that particular situation. I'm convinced that most people who would not allow the move to be taken back would be doing that because they honestly feel that that will the best thing for the one who made the mistake – it's the school of Toughlove, or hard knocks, but it comes from a good place.

I think in the same way, we have to be on guard against the kindness police, if somebody wants to be generous even at the expense of their own advantage in an organize play event, I say let them.

It's good either way.

DANVAN

Edit: spelling
 
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Rob Tsuk
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Following the rules everyone has agreed to is the higher order of conduct in this case. Selectively bending the rules isn't.
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Evan
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rtsuk wrote:
Following the rules everyone has agreed to is the higher order of conduct in this case. Selectively bending the rules isn't.


It's an important point (not to mention an interesting one), but based on the responses in this thread I think it's an open question whether everyone did in fact agree to those rules. If the TO made it explicit that a Strict Enforcement metarule was in effect, I'm not sure I'd be coming back.
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