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Subject: Questions about Roc Warrior, poisoning, terrify, counterattack rss

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Daniel Halasz
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After more then 10 games we still have questions:

1. Roc Warrior says: may move up to 2 hexes after you attack Step. Can I make the extra two steps even if I didn't attacked with my Bird in that round? Or If didn't attacked with anybody?
2. Do the red archers make damage with a helmet + lore roll?
3. Valor and Vengence lore card says: "unit ignores all retreats caused by that combat roll". Does it work against terrify?
4. Can I play a Counterattack after my opponents Counterattack to copy my previously played card?

Thank you in advance.
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Scott Lewis
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Re: A few questions
1) Yes, as long as the Roc was ordered (IE, you can't use that ability if the Roc wasn't one of the units you ordered). It doesn't matter if the Roc attacked or not.

2) Yes, as you can commit dice in any order, so committing the helmet first will cause the poison, and then you can commit the lore to cause a damage. (This is a little different than how Bloodthirst for the Flesh Rippers works, I'll explain below).

3) Yes, Terrify causes retreats by committing helmet results, and Valor and Vengeance ignores all retreats, regardless of what causes them.

4) Yep.




* Bloodthirst - I know you didn't ask, but I thought I'd point it out, but for Bloodthirst, basically the target has to be damaged before the attack. If you roll, for instance, a helmet and a regular damage against an undamaged unit, the helmet will NOT trigger Bloodthirst for that attack, because you have to commit dice first, and at the time you commit the dice, the unit is not damaged. You don't apply the damage until a later step (unlike the Archer question, where you are committing both dice in the same step, so you can choose the order), and by the time damage is applied, you are past the commit dice step.
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Jake Waltier
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I believe you, but is there a rule justification for why you can commit lore to do damage to a unit that is about to be poisoned, while you cannot commit bloodthirst dice for extra damage prior to that damage being dealt?
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Daniel Halasz
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As I understand, the key is the order of dice evaluation.
Helmet, Damage, Retreat, Lore.

So you should evalute the helmets before the damage -> Bloodthirsters can't make extra damage with them.
But Lore is after Helmet, so you can use it to make damage on the poisoned unit in the same turn.


TwentySides wrote:
I believe you, but is there a rule justification for why you can commit lore to do damage to a unit that is about to be poisoned, while you cannot commit bloodthirst dice for extra damage prior to that damage being dealt?
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Scott Lewis
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TwentySides wrote:
I believe you, but is there a rule justification for why you can commit lore to do damage to a unit that is about to be poisoned, while you cannot commit bloodthirst dice for extra damage prior to that damage being dealt?

Daniel's answer is on the right track, though not exactly right.

The main key is in the combat sequence, specifically steps 4 and 6.

Step 4) Commit Dice
Step 6) Suffer Damage.

When you commit dice in step 4, you are committing dice for other than their NORMAL effect. So you don't commit regular damage results to cause damage, you don't commit flags to cause retreats, and you don't commit lore to gain lore tokens.

When you COMMIT a die, basically you are using that die for something else. So, for instance, with the Citadel Guards, you can commit a Strike result to cause a retreat. If you do this, the Strike result will not cause normal damage.

When committing dice, if there is a condition along with it, you check the condition when you commit the die. If the condition isn't met at that point, the ability won't trigger. You don't go back and check the condition later, because at that point, you are past the commit dice step.

Finally, and damage or retreats caused by committing dice are NOT applied immediately, but wait until Step 6 or Step 8 to be applied. Basically, they are just added to the general "pool" of damage/retreats for the roll. However, any other effect WOULD trigger immediately based on the ability.


So, with that in mind, let's look at the Viper Legion and compare it to the Flesh Ripper.

If a Viper Legion rolls a Heroic and a Lore, both have the potential to trigger things. The Uthuk player can choose to commit the Heroic result, causing the target to be IMMEDIATELY poisoned (poison tokens themselves are not damage, so the effect takes place immediately upon committing). Now, the unit is poisoned, and you are still in the Commit Dice step, you can commit the Lore result to deal a damage. You don't apply the damage quite yet, you still wait until Step 6, but you add that damage to the pool. So that's why the Heroic/Lore combo works for the Viper Legion to poison and damage in the same attack.

The Flesh Ripper, on the other hand, works different. If the Flesh Ripper is fighting an undamaged unit, and rolls a Heroic and a Strike, in step 3, only the Heroic result is committed. Although the Strike will deal damage later, you do not "commit" such dice. So at this point, the target is not damaged. If you commit the Heroic result, you check the condition for Bloodthirst - and since the target isn't damaged, it has no effect. After finishing the commit dice step, you then move on, and get to step 6; at this point, the damage result is applied. But you've passed the Commit Dice step, so you don't go back and check the Heroic result - the time for doing that is passed. So for the Flesh Rippers, the Bloodthirst ability only works if the unit was damaged BEFORE the attack, because that's the only way that the target will have damage in Step 4 Commit Dice.

I hope that helps. Flesh Rippers are still mean, especially for finishing off units, though, so don't be fooled
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Paul Leoncavallo
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Figured I'd jump in here with my own question about the Roc Warrior.

The Flying ability states that the Roc Warrior may ignore normal terrain rules. For instance he doesn't have to stop when passing 'over' a forest hex.

Does this apply for water as well? Can the Roc Warrior fly over water hexes or even land in them?

What about other units, is he allowed to fly over those as well?
 
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Daniel Halasz
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In my opinion all answers are yes. He can do anything, but can't land on a unit.
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Scott Lewis
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nyys wrote:
Does this apply for water as well? Can the Roc Warrior fly over water hexes or even land in them?

Yes. Rocs ignore and can move into and through all terrain without restriction, even terrain that blocks movement. I don't think of them as really "landing" there, but kind of hovering over them.

Note that they still count as being in the hex, but don't get any bonuses. For instance, if a scenario has rules about occupying building hexes, a Roc can enter those hexes and count as occupying the hex for the scenario rules, but don't get any combat bonuses for it.

Quote:
What about other units, is he allowed to fly over those as well?

Yes, the reference guide also says they can move through unit-occupied hexes, but cannot end movement in such hexes.
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Bubba P
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Does the Roc warrior block line of sight?
 
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Mike
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RHPDaddy wrote:
Does the Roc warrior block line of sight?


Yes. It doesn't say anywhere that flying DOESN'T block line of sight, so standard rules apply. It's a unit, so it blocks line of sight like any other unit.
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