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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Is making a mistake cheating? rss

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Scott Steiner
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Personally, I have done the same thing in other events. What I did though was went to the event coordinator and the second place winner, told them my mistake and asked what they wanted done. I offered to hand over the prize to the second place person. They were both good about it and said I could keep the first place.

The second mistake in my opinion wasn't that big unless you were using the 9 Martok but using the 8 ability. Also, asking the TO to double check your things shouldn't be necessary since at least at our venue we require our opponents to verify our listings during each round. In fact the sheets need to be initialed by each opponent.

 
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Will Sanchez
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If its written on your fleet sheet, that's the card you're supposed to use, regardless of what you have on the table. as long as you didn't use the incorrect martok's ability, its not quite cheating.

Making a mistake and not sticking with the consequences though is cheating (like changing a dial after you reveal it).
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We joke about this all the time when we make mistakes or inadvertantly overlook a rule in a scenario or something, but honestly "cheating" requires intent. Making an honest mistake, even if it is to your benefit, is not cheating if it was truly that -- a mistake. Mistakes happen to pretty much everyone. Doesn't mean everyone is cheating.

And using the wrong token for the captain is hardly worth mentioning. I can't see how anyone would be truly upset about that. A normal person anyway. You had the captain card and were using him appropriately I assume, so no big deal if it cosmetically wasn't corrent. The tokens have little effect on gameplay.
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Rich Gray
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The correct card, but the incorrect cardboard-arch-insert. The rulebooks calls them captain ID tokens. My opponent went nuts, and evidently was having a bad day.
 
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David Griffin
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Seems over the top. I have switched the dials inadvertently putting my maneuver for one on the other and vice versa. The dial I meant was next to the ship so that the maneuvers were correct and possible for both ships in both cases. I identified the problem checked to be sure I didn't order up an illegal maneuver, told my opponent and didn't think anything of it. It wasn't an OP event though.

Mistakes are going to happen.

I kind of think the OP aspect kind of ruins the fun sometimes. People are less having fun and more crushing their opponent.
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Rich Gray
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I enjoy using the deadliest ships (even in games where one cannot win via a military victory). I enjoy trying to win the prizes. So I use the deadliest ships. This seems to be part of reason why this gentleman was so upset. He wants to use the original series ships, but they suck are not competitive.
 
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Thomas wilson
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To link in with a hotly debated thread.


ship maneuver cards are a waste of cardboard eh ???


depends how bad the difference in maneuver wheels was. Either your oppnent should of been "HEY that ship cant do a white 1 about!". Or it probably didn't make that much a difference. Besides you did technically already win DS9 anyway.


The captain token issue is non starter, if you had the right card out. its manousha. But then again the initial argument on who moved last on turn one should of brought this mistake to light. If you didnt point this out i can see why people would take it as an attempt at deception. Esp considering the last month shenanigans.
 
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Rich Gray
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I noticed it during setup. It did not interfere with any games. I suppose if I had the Martok 8 card, and the Martok 9 Captain ID Token, then that would have changed initiatives, and would have potentially made the level 8 captains not able to fire back after being destroyed.
 
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darkrose50 wrote:
I noticed it during setup. It did not interfere with any games.


If it never interfered with a game, no one has any reason to be upset and they are just being sore about losing. You made a mistake, corrected it before it mattered, and no harm was done.

And an opponent flipping out about the captain tokens when you clearly had the correct card is just... silly.
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Skyguard
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First no issue in a game of Attack Wing should have a threat of real violence. If there are real threats of violence it needs to be brought up to store management and dealt with.

I can see it being a small issue if you were using the wrong token and the player thought your ship were going to move in a different order. However this should have been caught very early in the game (the 1st turn or two) and could easily be fixed before it affected the game.

For the dial issue, I feel this is a little more borderline. When was the incorrect dial found? Who found it? And how was the issue addressed? Again really it should be caught early but it can be a little harder to see if its a similar ship's dial. Did you play all 3 matches with wrong dial?

please note this isn't with any malice it's just how your post is coming off to me and I very well may be misinterpreting

The one thing I will state with this is you do come off as making excuses for your mistakes which I've found can cause people including myself to get more upset about things as they feel you're trying to pull something over on them. I don't think that was what you were doing but it is something to remember.

If you make a true mistake (meaning you took actions to do something you should not have been able to do) in a game one the best ways I've found to deal with it is to point out my mistake as soon as I see it and ask my opponent how they think we should deal with it. But in all of this it is also on you to make sure you are following the rules and don't make mistakes.
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Erin OConnor
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Sounds to me like you should see if you can find a different place to play with friendlier people.

Don't feel too bad though. Some guy went ballistic at Origins too. What I heard from the WizKids staff it was quite the scene.
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Skyguard wrote:

I can see it being a small issue if you were using the wrong token and the player thought your ship were going to move in a different order. However this should have been caught very early in the game (the 1st turn or two) and could easily be fixed before it affected the game.


The opponent should have consulted his build sheet, or it should/would have been apparent during set up. That said, its a minor difference. Martok 8 moves before everyone except Picard, Kirk and Janeway (and GenKhan if there is a 9 skill in the game). Marok 9 moves before everyone except Picard and Kirk. The only difference is if there's a Janeway or an appropriately buffed Khan.

And the card with the 9 skill Martok was sitting right there on the table, even if they didn't consult his build sheet.

Quote:
For the dial issue, I feel this is a little more borderline. When was the incorrect dial found? Who found it?


He said it was noticed during set up and he corrected it before any matches were played.
 
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Rich Gray
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I pointed out all the mistakes. I need to make sure I have my opponents check my stuff before games to avoid all this drama in the future.

I always think, and overthink everything. I am often confused when people think trying to figure out the reason for a mistake is an excuse. I find it to be helpful to figure out what happened when someone says that you are cheating. The judge wanted me to admit my mistake was cheating, and to move on.

The dial mistake was pointed out by my during the third round. If I was cheating, then I would not have said anything. We do not verify opponents builds at this venue, but I will make sure I add this to my checklist of things to do. I do not want to have to go though all this defending myself stuff again.
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Rich Gray
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I had a friend with me who was a martial artist. I do not think the other guys would have let him attack me. I also think it could have been all hot air. I have Asperger's (I cannot read non-verbal queues well), and about once every year or so some alpha male will try to intimidate me, and become quite frustrated when I do not receive any of the signals. I am sure this contributed to the mess. He was trying to tell me that he wanted to either beat chests or fight with body language, I did not respond, and so he had to use words.
 
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darkrose50 wrote:

The dial mistake was pointed out by my during the third round. If I was cheating, then I would not have said anything. We do not verify opponents builds at this venue, but I will make sure I add this to my checklist of things to do. I do not want to have to go though all this defending myself stuff again.


At this point in a event an incorrect dial for the ship in play (note: not place just placing the dial next to/on the wrong ship) I really think needs to go to the TO for a ruling on what to do.

I understand that you don't think you played any incorrect movements but it has become an issue at that point in an event. Put yourself in the other players shoes. How you would feel in that case? They don't know your intent only that you beat them using the wrong ships dial.

As a TO I hope to not get to that point with that big of a mistake but I could see having to DQ someone. Playing multiple rounds with the wrong dial is an issue.



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Rich Gray
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I fully admit that it is a serious mistake, but I do not think it was cheating. Cheating implies intent (I would think, from reading the definitions anyhow).

I want to ensure this never occurs again. I am making a checklist to follow before every event, and I am discussing the checklist in another thread.
 
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James Patrick
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Forget the whole "Is it cheating" thing. (It isn't) Threats of violence? Is that really where we are?
 
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William Bowers
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Yeah, I don't care if you were intentionally cheating. If someone assaulted you over a game then he needs to be banned from any future tournaments, or hell the store itself for that matter. That is ridiculous for a game.
 
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ex8404 wrote:
Forget the whole "Is it cheating" thing. (It isn't) Threats of violence? Is that really where we are?


I completely agree if there was a real threat of violence, something needs to be done.

darkrose50 wrote:
I fully admit that it is a serious mistake, but I do not think it was cheating. Cheating implies intent (I would think, from reading the definitions anyhow).


I did see your checklist thread I think it's a great idea if it will help you. Really, good on you for seeing you have an issue getting correctly setup and moving to fix it.

I get where you're coming from on the mistake vs cheating. However unfortunately when it comes down to how others can see our actions the lines are never that clear. It can be your relationships with people that to them create how they judge your actions.

As you have stated you have a hard time reading peoples non-verbal queues, you might want to try and work on the non-verbal queues you are putting off as well. A friendly handshake and the wishing of a good game can go a long way. In the end remember the point of Attack Wing is to have fun.
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Rob Tsuk
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I think what I would do in your situation is concede the game and offer to continue playing just for fun with the corrected dial. That way there's no doubt at all about my intent.
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Rich Gray
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"Cheating in a game is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is thinking through all of the legitimate and possible solutions and picking the best one to defeat your opponent. Cheating... is using an illegitimate solution to defeat your opponent or gain an advantage while (typically) trying to hide the fact that what you're doing isn't allowed according to the rules. Contrast that with making a mistake... where you don't understand or misinterpret the rules... and unintentionally "cheat." It's all intent. The guy who writes the "Tabletop Hell" blog does a nice article series on the joy of gaming with people who cheat. I've gamed with people who cheat before... and the social taboo against calling someone out on dishonesty can make it difficult to police. I usually set up rules and/or situations that make cheating really difficult. Rolling in a dice box instead of having each player have their own set of dice. Requiring players use a spreadsheet when constructing point based armies. Doing a backwards calculation of points-based RPGs character sheets. (More to prevent math errors. I always have to have someone check a character sheet after I'm done with it... not because I'm a cheater... but because I suck at math and have terrible handwriting.) I've seen people in war-game tournament settings have a "third-person" checker for army lists, Because it's so easy to pad your army in some of the larger wargames like Warhammer and Warmachine. A good set of "house rules" for games with complicated or fuzzy rules usually helps (Eilene McCullagh Heckman)."
 
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David Griffin
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It would be nice if people remembered that even though there are prizes and even though the stakes might be high at a big tournament but in the end we're playing this game for the fun of it. If you're not enjoying yourself, then what are you (or they) there for?

And don't just make sure YOU have fun, try to make sure your opponent is too. Be friendly, honest, and try to leave the arrogance at home, even if you deserve to be arrogant. I wish I could always live up to that standard but I do try. I tend to lose more than win so for me the challenge is to be a good loser. And in those occasional circumstances where I win, I try to be a good winner too. Even at my age in my 50s I still don't have it right but it's a good standard to aim at.

I think you acted reasonably.
 
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darkrose50 wrote:
"Cheating in a game is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is thinking through all of the legitimate and possible solutions and picking the best one to defeat your opponent. Cheating... is using an illegitimate solution to defeat your opponent or gain an advantage while (typically) trying to hide the fact that what you're doing isn't allowed according to the rules. Contrast that with making a mistake... where you don't understand or misinterpret the rules... and unintentionally "cheat." It's all intent.


I have to disagree with you here. You did cheat. I understand that it wasn't your intent. However you broke a base rule of the game by using the wrong dial for multiple rounds. Doesn't make you a bad person just someone who made a mistake which maybe able to be taken in account for in the penalty, but it doesn't change that you broke the rules.

I think that part of the issue with your judge on from this may come from you continuing to try to explain why you feel you didn't cheat. Look at it from judges perspective, a highly competitive player (you've stated you are always using the strongest ships, enjoy winning prizes, and had won the 3 out of 5 events up to this point) is playing the wrong dial in the 3rd round of grand-prize event. Later when asked about it you state that oh I must have made a mistake picking my dial and then continue to list why you didn't cheat.

Sounds a lot like what someone trying to game the system would say doesn't it? The issue is he/she can't tell but only see that you're being defense about it.

I do have a question with all of this from what I've been able to tell from your posts it doesn't sound like this was brought up to the TO at the time of the event.

What do you think should have been the penalty for your mistake with the dial?

And if you were beaten in an early round by someone who turned out to be using the wrong dial for their ship and went on to win the prize, what would you expect to be done about if it was found in a later round?
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O B
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darkrose50 wrote:
We do not verify opponents builds at this venue, but I will make sure I add this to my checklist of things to do.


There's a reason the build sheets have a space for you to sign off on your opponent's build.

*Making* everybody double check stuff reduces drama.
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Matt Hoskins
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darkrose50 wrote:
Is making a mistake cheating?



So the question stands, is making a mistake cheating?


Cheating implies intent.

If you were physically threatened at an event you should report the incident to Wizkids. That NEEDS to be addressed.
 
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