Timothy Pride
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My group had just finished Burnt Offerings adventure and starting the next one. One thing that I notice was the lack of use for armor and other dmg preventation items. I mean, you don't need armor to win the combat, and you should strife to NOT using armor at all (if you use it, it means you lost the combat, thus losing a turn / exploration). Having one armor card in my hand feels like somewhat useless card, and having two of them makes me fells like encumbered a lot (which make sense thematically, but not strategically).

Is it because of my group composition? We play Kyra, Sajan, and Merisiel. All of them has one way or the other recharging cards in hand, and most likely spent almost all of the cards in hand anyway when combating, so if we lost, most of the time we only lose 1 or 2 cards since our hands were already empty (having Kyra also helps less worry about cards in deck though, I admit)

The final nail for me was when getting the loot of Burnt offerings (forgot the name, but the ability reads: discard to prevent 4 combat dmg). We don't necessarily need this card, thus making it feels like not epic enough for loot. We only keep it just because it says "loot" and because Kyra can recharge it by divine.

We do have some difficulties if the monster has ability that deal dmg before the encounter, but since most armor prevent only combat dmg anyway, thus still rendering armor useless.

So what do you guys think about this ?
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Mik Svellov
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Loot is not particularly usable. We have only kept a few. Most of the time, we prefer the cards we already have in our decks.

As Lem it took a long time for me a type of Armor I found liked. It's a Snakeskin Tunic I found in adventure 2 (Loot as it happends). I mostly use it to add 1 to my Dexterity checks, although now that I have become proficient with light armor, I could bury it to prevent all damage (never wanted to banish it).

However, I seldom take more than a single damage per turn anyway, so I could just as well simply discard a card - especially with my power to reclaim Cards from my discard pile. But the +1 Dexterity is handy. meeple

So I agree that armor isn't that great for my character. However I find it perfectly in line with my role.
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D P
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Make sure and read the second ability on the armor, too. Many of them have a second ability that will prevent -any- damage, not just Combat Damage, though it has a higher cost. But if your character has an Armor slot, it can be replaced easily if it was Banished; it can be quite useful in an emergency.

Also, I just want to quote this from another thread elsewhere (take a look at #2):

Link :Non-spoilery look at AP6
kysmartman on Paizo forum wrote:
Just got my box in and sleeved everything so I wanted to share some impressions without being too spoilery about it.

Impression 1: You may need to change your pants after looking at the Banes, especially if you have a group of mage-casters. So, if you've been whining that the game is too easy, this pack is for you. It wouldn't shock me that you won't have much down time between this and S&S because losses are highly likely now.

Impression 2: All of us that have been bashing armor as useless, yeah ignore us.

Impression 3: You will get a sneak peak at how S&S will work as a few things that are very prevalent there appear for the first time here.

Impression 4: OMG the BOONS!!!! There isn't a useless one in the bunch. There are a couple of spells that are slightly iffy, but still very, very solid cards.

Impression 5: You will do a lot of cursing about all those Items that aren't Basic/Elite aka banishable. The new Items are amazing, and you will want them all.

Wow, I just wish there was a sequel that continued on with RotR because the good stuff is just sooooo good.
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Kurt Van Hoeyveld
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It is common knowledge the game can be too easy sometimes, so there isn't need for armor THAT often. But sometimes rolls just don't go the way you want and then you'll be happy to have some kind of armor to save some cards you don't want to discard.

 
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Sylvain FREOUR
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As your characters progress further in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path, they will meet more and more situations when they might experience damage. Damage can come from many sources: Barriers and Monsters. The difficulty of Barriers increases with the adventure number, so you may encounter Barriers your character will not be able to overcome (even by discarding Blessings), most of them will deal damage to you. Besides, some of the new Monsters have powers: they deal automatic damage before the Combat check. This occurs more often after adventure pack 2 (just when you will start to remove basic cards from the game, increasing the probability to encounter the deadlier enemies). Thus, you will sometimes want to be able to rely on a Armour (or damage reducing Item / Spell) to reduce damage before the combat check, because it is hard to beat a Monster with a empty hand (and that would make you lose an exploration turn). Thus, damage reducing cards become more interesting when you reach AP3.
Most of my characters have around two cards enabling to reduce damage: Armours, Ring of Protection, Sihedron Medallion(s). Ring of Protection is useful because you only need to Reveal it to reduce damage by 1.
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Mik Svellov
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freourslc wrote:
As your characters progress further in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path, they will meet more and more situations when they might experience damage.

Hope this is true.
Only a few more days for the final chance of getting hurt. ninja
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Great Dane wrote:
freourslc wrote:
As your characters progress further in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path, they will meet more and more situations when they might experience damage.

Hope this is true.
Only a few more days for the final chance of getting hurt. ninja


I got through scenario 3 of spires of xin-shalast last night. Every scenario has been difficult (and I consider myself pretty good at this game). I'm terrified of the final scenario, and I'm not even there yet. Armor/damage reduction is incredibly useful. I'm very happy that as Sajan, I took drunken master and have maxed out non-combat damage reduction....
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Timothy Pride
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firedale2002 wrote:
Make sure and read the second ability on the armor, too. Many of them have a second ability that will prevent -any- damage, not just Combat Damage, though it has a higher cost. But if your character has an Armor slot, it can be replaced easily if it was Banished; it can be quite useful in an emergency.


Apparently I failed at reading.

Somehow since the 1st ability is just combat dmg, I assumed the 2nd would be combat dmg too. Sooo... thanks for that blush

freourslc wrote:
As your characters progress further in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path, they will meet more and more situations when they might experience damage. Damage can come from many sources: Barriers and Monsters. The difficulty of Barriers increases with the adventure number, so you may encounter Barriers your character will not be able to overcome (even by discarding Blessings), most of them will deal damage to you. Besides, some of the new Monsters have powers: they deal automatic damage before the Combat check. This occurs more often after adventure pack 2 (just when you will start to remove basic cards from the game, increasing the probability to encounter the deadlier enemies). Thus, you will sometimes want to be able to rely on a Armour (or damage reducing Item / Spell) to reduce damage before the combat check, because it is hard to beat a Monster with a empty hand (and that would make you lose an exploration turn). Thus, damage reducing cards become more interesting when you reach AP3.


Well, like I said, most of the "before encounter" effects usually are not combat dmg, so I thought armor was useless anyway (before I reread it again). Aaand, it seems the medalion AP1 loot is also any damage, not just combat. So, that's quite okay

In any game with character progression, having good armor is also an improvement for your character. But here is just "backup plan", and not "enhancing" anything else. So... it's kinda unintuitive I think .

But thanks all for answers.
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M.C.Crispy
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Darkmot wrote:
In any game with character progression, having good armor is also an improvement for your character. But here is just "backup plan", and not "enhancing" anything else. So... it's kinda unintuitive I think .
This comes from the nature of PACG combat: you either defeat the Monster and take no damage or you fail to defeat the Monster and take damage. (Some Monsters do have special "outside of combat" effects that cause you to take damage that is unaffected by the outcome of combat.) There is no partial success in combat where you both get hurt and no armour effect that makes you harder to hit, it just reduces damage. Also, there's no armour "skill" - the efficacy of the armour is purely related to it's level and your binary is/isn't Proficient in Armour.

Out of interest, what "good armor is also an improvement for your character" effect(s) were you expecting to see?
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Timothy Pride
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mccrispy wrote:


Out of interest, what "good armor is also an improvement for your character" effect(s) were you expecting to see?


For example in MK. You need to decide if you want to kill your enemy with ranged attack or normal attack. With normal attack, the enemy will attack you first, so you need armor/block beforehand. If you cannot block and getting too many dmg, you cannot attack. So, having armor "helps" me improve.

In many dugeon crawling games like Descent for example (or even pathfinder rpg), enemies has their own phase to attack you, so armor is also quite important to progressing the game.

The problem is PACG built this way, so nothing much we can do about dmg (especially combat) preventation. But maybe we can make it better if armor has another incentive like "reveal to change your attack into fire" or something like that, or enemy ability like "to beat XXX, you need to able to prevent 3 combat dmg or raise difficulty by 4"
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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We're on AP4 now, and we're finding armour (and/or damage prevention) is much more important than it was at the start of the campaign. Even ready access to Cure spells won't help you if before the fight with a monster/henchman/villain you're forced to discard your only/best weapon. Which has been happening with alarming regularity to us recently.
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Richard Poole
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Armor can be good for some characters*, specifically the characters who aren't able to wear them. Having a huge hand size is awesome, but it also opens you up to wipeout. If I had a 9 card hand, I'd be quite happy if one of those was "bury this card to prevent all damage". If I have a 4 card hand, I hate armor so much. Also, some characters could have abilities that interact with armor in a useful way.

As far as what would constitute a good armor upgrade, I'm a fan of "reveal this card to add X to your Y check" combined with "Bury, prevent all".

*My experiences are not based on AP1. Enough said? I know in the first half of AP1, I thought armor was terrible and useless too.


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M.C.Crispy
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Darkmot wrote:
mccrispy wrote:


Out of interest, what "good armor is also an improvement for your character" effect(s) were you expecting to see?


For example in MK. You need to decide if you want to kill your enemy with ranged attack or normal attack. With normal attack, the enemy will attack you first, so you need armor/block beforehand. If you cannot block and getting too many dmg, you cannot attack. So, having armor "helps" me improve.

In many dugeon crawling games like Descent for example (or even pathfinder rpg), enemies has their own phase to attack you, so armor is also quite important to progressing the game.

The problem is PACG built this way, so nothing much we can do about dmg (especially combat) preventation. But maybe we can make it better if armor has another incentive like "reveal to change your attack into fire" or something like that, or enemy ability like "to beat XXX, you need to able to prevent 3 combat dmg or raise difficulty by 4"
Yeah, I don't see it. There are plenty of Monsters that deal damage before Combat (and after), if you take damage before combat you may not be able to attack as a result. Armour helps.
 
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In the early bits of AP1, armor does tend to clog your hand. Why prevent damage when you could use a weapon to win instead? Also, pre-combat damage just isn't common enough to justify armor.

Jumping to magic armor that lets you recharge it at-will is also helpful.
 
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Escapade wrote:
In the early bits of AP1, armor does tend to clog your hand. Why prevent damage when you could use a weapon to win instead? Also, pre-combat damage just isn't common enough to justify armor.

Jumping to magic armor that lets you recharge it at-will is also helpful.
True to a certain extent when your hand capacity is low (as I think it does for most 'fighters' IIRC). But you can only use one weapon at a time.
 
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Mik Svellov
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mccrispy wrote:
There are plenty of Monsters that deal damage before Combat (and after), if you take damage before combat you may not be able to attack as a result. Armour helps.

As Lem I prefer to discard a card I don't need for combat, then reclaim that card from my discard pile next turn, if I really need it.
 
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Great Dane wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
There are plenty of Monsters that deal damage before Combat (and after), if you take damage before combat you may not be able to attack as a result. Armour helps.

As Lem I prefer to discard a card I don't need for combat, then reclaim that card from my discard pile next turn, if I really need it.
Sure, that works for Lem, with a single point of damage (which is probably what most outside of combat damage comes as - at least in the lower APs). One big downfall of Armour is a Monster like the Enchantress - you take two damage, but in two separate chunks. How I hate that Monster. And the Siren.
 
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mccrispy wrote:
True to a certain extent when your hand capacity is low (as I think it does for most 'fighters' IIRC). But you can only use one weapon at a time.


If it's not clogging my hand and denying me a weapon, then it's clogging my hand and stopping me from having an ally/blessing and/or second weapon so I can be ready for my next combat that turn. How I hate having a 4 card hand and half of it being things that aren't helpful until I lose a combat (or take out of combat damage).
 
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Dave Riley
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We were down on armor until about AP4? Maybe 5. By then there's so many pre-fight Acrobatics or Fortitude checks that you basically have to have some kind of damage mitigation. In our duo Merisiel got through the whole game with only a Ring of Protection and the Snakeskin Tunic (almost never used for armor). Kyra found a the elemental damage-reducing shield, then an Invincible Breastplate that you can discard instead of bury for 0 damage, that was crucial. Upgrading it to an Adamantine Breastplate in AP6, same thing, except it's a reveal for 1 less damage of any type, was also fantastic.

Kyra could soak 3 of practically any damage without recharging a card, and her 7 hand size gave her room for 2 armors. Merisiel mostly had to rely on acrobatics checks (it felt like there were more of those than fortitude), and on the fortitude it was "try to roll low on a d4." 2 damage or less and she could use/discard the Ring of Protection to soak it all up.

Like I said, we hated armor early on, though Meri and Kyra had brief flirtations with the Elven Chain Shirt and Elven Breastplate, respectively (reveal powers are just too good). In the beginning armor really does feel like it's punishing you, taking away space that should be rightfully held by an ally or blessing. By the end almost every henchman has pre-encounter elemental damage, and you need that stuff just to keep your hand in order, otherwise you won't have enough blessings/spells/whatevers to make the check. Armor also improves drastically. Seeing that the Invincible Breastplate was a discard instead of a bury basically flipped our whole perception of armor on its head, and after you've spent a few APs with ho-hum shields like Magic and Spiked, a reflective shield that blocks almost every elemental damage almost feels like cheating.
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Timothy Pride
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Fastkarate wrote:
We were down on armor until about AP4? Maybe 5. By then there's so many pre-fight Acrobatics or Fortitude checks that you basically have to have some kind of damage mitigation. In our duo Merisiel got through the whole game with only a Ring of Protection and the Snakeskin Tunic (almost never used for armor). Kyra found a the elemental damage-reducing shield, then an Invincible Breastplate that you can discard instead of bury for 0 damage, that was crucial. Upgrading it to an Adamantine Breastplate in AP6, same thing, except it's a reveal for 1 less damage of any type, was also fantastic.

Kyra could soak 3 of practically any damage without recharging a card, and her 7 hand size gave her room for 2 armors. Merisiel mostly had to rely on acrobatics checks (it felt like there were more of those than fortitude), and on the fortitude it was "try to roll low on a d4." 2 damage or less and she could use/discard the Ring of Protection to soak it all up.

Like I said, we hated armor early on, though Meri and Kyra had brief flirtations with the Elven Chain Shirt and Elven Breastplate, respectively (reveal powers are just too good). In the beginning armor really does feel like it's punishing you, taking away space that should be rightfully held by an ally or blessing. By the end almost every henchman has pre-encounter elemental damage, and you need that stuff just to keep your hand in order, otherwise you won't have enough blessings/spells/whatevers to make the check. Armor also improves drastically. Seeing that the Invincible Breastplate was a discard instead of a bury basically flipped our whole perception of armor on its head, and after you've spent a few APs with ho-hum shields like Magic and Spiked, a reflective shield that blocks almost every elemental damage almost feels like cheating.


Wow, thanks for the sneak peak. I'm glad down the line armor won't be as useless
 
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Chris McDonald
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Yes, some kind of damage prevention becomes essential by AP4. You will be getting pre-combat damage left and right, and if you can't block it you will lose the cards you need to win the combat.
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Calthaer the Bard
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Armor may seem less worthwhile in the first half of Rise of the Runelords, but Mike Selinker has hinted more than once that Skull & Shackles may be more challenging, and may therefore provide more benefits to carrying armor.
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Joseph Cochran
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Darkmot wrote:
Having one armor card in my hand feels like somewhat useless card, and having two of them makes me fells like encumbered a lot (which make sense thematically, but not strategically).


It's also worth pointing out in this thread that many of the magic armors allow you to recharge them when resetting your hand if you're proficient, which means that if my Seelah (for example) has multiple armors in her hand now that we're into AP3, she has the option to put them back in exchange for other things.
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