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Unconditional Surrender! World War 2 in Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Declaration of war rss

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Am I understanding this correctly?

Declaring war on a country is required to attack or move into that country, unless it is friendly or already at war. With a neutral country automatically joining a faction immediately after being declared war at, and before any movement/attack can take place, as long as the corresponding faction policy (appeasement or nazi-soviet pact) is still in place, there is no way to actually attack that country without also declaring war on the faction the neutral country has just joined (and preferably earlier, to influence which faction the country joins). This then ends the policy and the way is free for an attack. So there is actually no way of attacking a neutral country without also drawing a faction in, correct?
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Dan Cunningham
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Correct. Although the western allies are not fully unleashed until the west invaded event and Mediterranean crisis events happen. And likewise the soviets are limited until the east invaded event happens.
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Salvatore Vasta
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All of that is correct, including Dan's reply. Until war is declared on a faction, I view that period as active alliances being formed.

Using the words, Declare War, in this situation is not accurate. It is more like threatening war or making a claim on the territory or against the neutral's government, or whatever else you can think of that precedes actually crossing the border and fighting.

To keep the rules simpler, I used the Declare War mechanic and called it that.

Sal
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Ken Waido
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Sal's response helps me better understand the difference between a faction's DoW on another faction versus a country's DoW against another country. But, I want to make sure I have it correct so there are some questions below.

In the third attempt to play the "32.1 The Main Event 1939-194?" (the previous two attempts were stopped due to major rules infractions) here is what happened. We were trying to see how the game could follow history as that history actually happened, and not have Germany go off and invade Italy on turn one, or some other ahistorical move.

Sep '39: Axis faction states a DoW on the Western faction (according to Sal this is, "more like threatening war...than actually crossing the border and fighting") - Appeasement ends and the USSR's NW immediately increases 40 from 45 to 85. Germany then does a DoW against Poland (go ahead and fight). The German army defeats the Polish army and conquers Poland. Germany annexes the Polish Corridor, Germany's Factory Count goes from 13 to 14 and their NW goes from 40 to 43. Then the Axis faction places a "Pro Axis" marker in Romania. The USSR annexes Eastern Poland and its Factory Count increases to 10 and its NW increases to 88. In the Diplomacy Phase, the Axis faction draws a "No Event" marker; the Western faction draws an "Area Seized" marker, which the USSR uses to annex Lithuania and increase their Factory Count to 11 and its NW to 89; and then the Soviet faction draws a "Political Success" marker and removes the "Pro Axis" marker from Romania.

Oct '39: Germany starts moving units from Poland to the west and positioning them for future DoWs and attacks on Denmark, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, and eventually France. Russia moves units into Eastern Poland and Lithuania. In the Diplomacy Phase, the Axis faction draws the "Political Failure" marker and the Western faction gets to apply a "Political Success" because both the Axis-Soviet Pact and the Moscow Treaty are not in effect. The Western faction places a "Pro Western" marker in Italy as Italy has a common border with Germany; and next (yes, you may have guessed it) the Western faction draws a "Political Success" marker and activates Italy as a member of the Western faction (Hitler kills all of Germany's diplomats). Italy places its five full strength armies along the border with Germany for invasion during a future turn. The Soviet faction draws a "No Event" marker and the turn ends.

Nov '39: In the DoW Phase, the Western faction cannot do a DoW against Axis faction because the Nazi-Soviet Pact is still in effect and besides the Axis faction has already made a DoW against the Western faction. But, the prohibition against the Western faction doing a DoW against the Axis faction means Italy cannot do a DoW against Germany and attack across the common border. Thus, the following questions:

When would Italy be permitted to attack and/or fight against Germany?

If Germany does DoWs against Belgium, the Netherlands, and France and attacks them, "13.8 West Invaded" occurs but nothing happens in regards to Italy?

The Western faction is countries allied with the UK, so Italy is allied with the UK, but is it not also allied with France which is allied with the UK?

Does Italy just have to sit by and watch Germany hammer Belgium, the Netherlands, and France, and any other Western faction countries, and not provide any help to anyone until the Nazi-Soviet Pact ends?

I'm sorry if these questions were previously asked and answered somewhere, but I would appreciate some answers.

Italy joining the Western faction is, perhaps, the most ahistorical event that can happen in the USE game (my opinion). I don't think Western faction countries would never have allied with Italy after Italy left the League of Nations and invaded Ethiopia, etc.


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Mike Haggett
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Declaring war on a faction ends that faction's policy. In the case of the West, that is Appeasement. Ending the policy allows all active members of that faction to fight against the Axis, i.e., you are at war. Specifically, it ends that policy's restrictions, chief of which are is no attacks between the West and the Axis. Since Italy is an active member of the Allied faction, they are at war with Germany, along with Britain and France.

Note that the West Invaded conditional event is separate and isn't triggered until the events in 13.8 occur.

I believe Sal's comment referred to not declaring war on a faction; in that case, war has been put off for a more distant time, following some more diplomacy. If you declare war on a faction you are at war with its active members and can enter that faction's countries and attack its units. As the Axis, you might not wish to attack into France/Low Countries or the Soviet Union immediately, since this could prematurely trigger either West/East Invaded before you are ready to launch a full offensive.
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Salvatore Vasta
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Ken - You handled your sequence of events correctly. However, it seems that when Poland was conquered, you forgot to add a "Pro-Axis" marker into the Diplomacy Cup. Conquering most countries results in two things: placing or removing a Pro-Faction marker from a neutral plus putting a Pro-Faction marker in the Cup.

The Axis were certainly very unlucky to have the combination of pulling a Political Failure (10% chance) directly followed by the West pulling one of the two remaining Political Success markers (22% chance). (That's a 2% in total, right?) However, it is possible.

As for the "historical" possibility, the Italian and the Western governments were in discussions with each other at the start of the war. However, if one feels it should be an even smaller chance or no chance for Italy to join the West, the game is easy to modify to taste, e.g. start Italy with a Strict Neutrality marker or don't allow it to activate as a Western country (i.e. the best it can have is a Pro-Allied marker in it).

On a separate matter is a misunderstanding of which countries are allowed to fight. I'm sorry if the rules were not clear in this regard. Here is a breakdown of how it works.

- Countries are either active or inactive (neutral or conquered). Inactive countries do not belong to any faction and cannot fight anyone. Obvious, I know, but just stating for completeness.

- Active countries belong to a faction.

- All active countries belonging to enemy factions can fight each other unless they are prohibited from doing so by a policy.

Using your game as an example:

- The Nazi-Soviet Pact policy is in effect. This prevents the Soviet faction (i.e. the USSR and all active countries belonging to the Soviet faction) from fighting the Axis faction (i.e. Germany and all active countries belonging to the Axis faction).

- The Appeasement policy is not effect. That means the Western faction (i.e. all active Western countries (which included Italy as soon as Italy activated as a Western country) can fight the Axis faction (i.e. Germany and all active countries belonging to the Axis faction).

Sal
 
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Ken Waido
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Mike,

First of all, thank you so much for such a quick response to my questions - your post was made exactly 1 hour after I posted the questions.

Let me sort of restate your answers in my words to make sure I understand your responses.

Basically, when a faction declares war against another faction, all countries of the declaring faction are at war with all of the countries of the declared on faction. So, in our game, when the Axis faction (Germany) declared war on the Western faction and Poland, the Axis faction(Germany)was also declaring war on the UK and France (ending Appeasement).

Rule "10.11 Declare War on Country" allows the phasing faction to declare war on neutral countries. The exception to the rule states that if either the Appeasement or Nazi-Soviet Pact policy is in effect the Western and Soviet factions cannot declare war. However, Germany, the UK and France are not neutral countries, so the rule does not prohibit war/combat between the UK and France against Germany.

Then, when Italy was activated as a Western faction country, that activation permits war/combat between Italy and Germany.

However, the Western faction cannot declare war against Yugoslavia (to be attacked by Italy), or Spain (to be attacked by France) because they are neutral countries.

Thanks again.

Ken
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Salvatore Vasta
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Ken Waido wrote:
Mike,

First of all, thank you so much for such a quick response to my questions - your post was made exactly 1 hour after I posted the questions.

Let me sort of restate your answers in my words to make sure I understand your responses.

Basically, when a faction declares war against another faction, all countries of the declaring faction are at war with all of the countries of the declared on faction. So, in our game, when the Axis faction (Germany) declared war on the Western faction and Poland, the Axis faction(Germany)was also declaring war on the UK and France (ending Appeasement).

Rule "10.11 Declare War on Country" allows the phasing faction to declare war on neutral countries. The exception to the rule states that if either the Appeasement or Nazi-Soviet Pact policy is in effect the Western and Soviet factions cannot declare war. However, Germany, the UK and France are not neutral countries, so the rule does not prohibit war/combat between the UK and France against Germany.

Then, when Italy was activated as a Western faction country, that activation permits war/combat between Italy and Germany.

However, the Western faction cannot declare war against Yugoslavia (to be attacked by Italy), or Spain (to be attacked by France) because they are neutral countries.

Thanks again.

Ken


You got it!

Sal
 
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Ken Waido
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Thanks to Sal who posted his response while I was composing my response to Mike.

Sal, we really like playing USE great job!
 
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Salvatore Vasta
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Ken Waido wrote:
Thanks to Sal who posted his response while I was composing my response to Mike.

Sal, we really like playing USE great job!


Thanks, Ken. May you enjoy it for many more hours to come.
 
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Uncle John
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I'm finally diving into the main event. I thought I understood the Declare War implications until I was knee deep into them. My game has unfolded pretty much exactly like Ken's earlier, except Italy went Western in Sep-39 due to the unlucky diplomacy draws.

So my question:
I declared war on the Western Faction so that when I declared war on Poland they would go Western because I want a West First game. Since I'm now at war with Poland/UK/France does that mean France could attack into Germany if they wanted to?
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Mike Haggett
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Yes
 
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FloydWing wrote:
I declared war on the Western Faction so that when I declared war on Poland they would go Western because I want a West First game. Since I'm now at war with Poland/UK/France does that mean France could attack into Germany if they wanted to?


Just what I was thinking about. laugh
The supply issue and German reinforcements (next month) should halt France from thinking about advancing.
 
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Mark Dey
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There's also the issue of the Home Defense policy which prevents French units from leaving the Maginot Line until West Invaded occurs.
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Jonathan Yedidia
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mark dey wrote:
There's also the issue of the Home Defense policy which prevents French units from leaving the Maginot Line until West Invaded occurs.


Yes, note that Home Defense says that until West Invaded happens, France can't move a unit out of the Maginot Line Fort. Also note that a unit in a fort can't attack. Also note that you can't move a ground unit through a hex containing another ground unit (including one in a fort) if that hex has is in an enemy zone of control. Also note that the entire French-German border is covered by the Maginot Line Forts. And note that the West cannot declare war on Belgium or any other country so long as the Nazi-Soviet Pact is active.

So as long as Germany keeps units next to the Maginot line hexes, and does not trigger West Invaded, it is completely safe from attack by Western ground units across the French-German border during the Sitzkrieg period. The Western Air Units can try air strikes, but that's a minor annoyance to the Axis.
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tim gagnon
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Hi,

To continue the questions in this thread;

Assuming Ken`s example is the exact game position:

Could the Germans thus set out to pound the Italians into dust and in so doing never trigger the West invaded Conditional event?

The Frenck and or UK could send units into Italy to support the Italians. An Axis attack on a French or UK unit in Italy would still not trigger West invaded?

Thanks

Tim
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Salvatore Vasta
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The Germans going into Italy would not trigger West Invaded, nor would attacking French or UK units in Italy. It is one reason why Italy going Allied is not a game ender.

It is also a way, if Italy is Axis, the Axis can try a 'Mediterranean First' strategy in which they go after France and the UK's Overseas Areas.

Sal
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Alecc
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Further question related to the East/West events prior to declaration of war. The Events put the Fac Lost markers on the board and allow for strategic warfare. Am I interpreting that correctly? We can bomb each other's factories but not invade?
 
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Mike Haggett
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In the East Invaded case, I'd put it as the start of large-scale partisan actions, so I don't have any disconnect with that, really.

I guess I could see the Western case if the Axis went East First and then tried to occupy or diplomatically gain B-N. Given the lack of modifiers, though, I'd be inclined to say that the Fac lost represents preparations for imminent strat war. At that point, actually losing more than one factory seems unlikely for either side, as the modifiers are very neutral.
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Salvatore Vasta
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Strategic Warfare can also represent economic trade wars or espionage. In a case which sees Strategic Warfare happening with an Allied faction still under the Appeasement or Pact policy (something the Axis player wants to avoid), it represents that instead of bombing factories or submarine warfare.
 
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Alecc
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Thanks for the replies, all! I'm beginning to think my move from Poland into Lithuania as Germany is my West-first game may have been ill advised.
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Salvatore Vasta
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Alecc wrote:
Thanks for the replies, all! I'm beginning to think my move from Poland into Lithuania as Germany is my West-first game may have been ill advised.


Haha, yes, perhaps it was.
 
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