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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Invulnerability and When Fielded Effects rss

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If you have characters that are invulnerable, they attack, are knocked out, and are they returned to the field, do their "when fielded" affects still go off? My friend and I can see it both ways.

Invulnerability: "Your attacking characters that are knocked out (this turn) return to the field."
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Mike Beiter
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No. Moving to the field is not actually "fielding" them. You're not paying field costs or anything.
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Kat Farmer
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
No. Moving to the field is not actually "fielding" them. You're not paying field costs or anything.


Actually, this is not correct according the FAQ - See page 3:
http://dicemasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/MDM-FAQ-FI...

According to Invulnerability, the Characters are KO'd and then return to the field.
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DyerKitty wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
No. Moving to the field is not actually "fielding" them. You're not paying field costs or anything.


Actually, this is not correct according the FAQ - See page 3:
http://dicemasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/MDM-FAQ-FI...

According to Invulnerability, the Characters are KO'd and then return to the field.


What part on page 3 are you referring too?

but no, they are already in the field, and never leave the field even if they 'enter' the attack zone by attacking or blocking

returning to the field while attacking doesn't mean they ever left the field

You already fielded the dice earlier, effect would not kick in again.
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Jared Wood
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
No. Moving to the field is not actually "fielding" them. You're not paying field costs or anything.

Fielding happens whenever the character moves to the field from another area (not the field - the attack zone is still part of the field), which would trigger "When fielded" effects.
Relevant FAQ: (bolding is mine)
FAQ wrote:
Q: Please explain “When fielded” effects.
A:“When fielded” effects trigger at the time that a player moves that character into their Field Zone. In most instances, this occurs when a player pays a character’s fielding cost and moves the character from their Reserve Pool to their Field Zone.
As an example, Hawkeye, Longbow’s ability allows him to deal his attack value to a target opposing character when he is fielded. Some game effects will allow characters to be fielded in a more non-traditional fashion—such as Gambit Le Diable Blanc.
If a character would be fielded from Gambit Le Diable Blanc’s ability, any “when fielded” effects on those characters would trigger.


As far as Invulnerability is concerned, I believe you treat it as a replacement effect. Normally, KO'd characters would move to the prep area. Since the card text reads:
"Your attacking characters that are knocked out (this turn) return to the field.", I would assume they move back to the field instead of the prep area.

In short, no, they would not trigger their when fielded effects again, because they returned to the field when they were knocked out instead of moving to the prep area.
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Keebler Powell
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Pocolius wrote:
[q="MajaiofDreams"]No. Moving to the field is not actually "fielding" them. You're not paying field costs or anything.

Fielding happens whenever the character moves to the field from another area (not the field - the attack zone is still part of the field), which would trigger "When fielded" effects.
Relevant FAQ: (bolding is mine)
FAQ]Q: Please explain “When fielded” effects.
A:“When fielded” effects trigger at the time that a player moves that character into their Field Zone. In most instances, this occurs when a player pays a character’s fielding cost and moves the character from their Reserve Pool to their Field Zone.
As an example, Hawkeye, Longbow’s ability allows him to deal his attack value to a target opposing character when he is fielded. Some game effects will allow characters to be fielded in a more non-traditional fashion—such as Gambit Le Diable Blanc.
If a character would be fielded from Gambit Le Diable Blanc’s ability, any “when fielded” effects on those characters would trigger.[/q wrote:


As far as Invulnerability is concerned, I believe you treat it as a replacement effect. Normally, KO'd characters would move to the prep area. Since the card text reads:
"Your attacking characters that are knocked out (this turn) return to the field.", I would assume they move back to the field instead of the prep area.

In short, no, they would not trigger their when fielded effects again, because they returned to the field when they were knocked out instead of moving to the prep area.



^ this is correct.
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Because of the FAQ, it sounds to me like Invulnerability DOES work on when fielded effects. Invulnerability says, "return to the field" which would imply that they left the field and went somewhere else. So they got KO'd and went to the Prep Area and then returned to the field.
 
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Deusface wrote:
Because of the FAQ, it sounds to me like Invulnerability DOES work on when fielded effects. Invulnerability says, "return to the field" which would imply that they left the field and went somewhere else. So they got KO'd and went to the Prep Area and then returned to the field.


I can see how you can construe that but it's not the case.

You can return to the field from the attack zone.

The attack zone and field are one and the same though.

So in this case, 'return to the field' is just moving him to the field instead of anywhere else. So he never really moved because the attack zone and the field are the same place.

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DrWhoWho wrote:
Deusface wrote:
Because of the FAQ, it sounds to me like Invulnerability DOES work on when fielded effects. Invulnerability says, "return to the field" which would imply that they left the field and went somewhere else. So they got KO'd and went to the Prep Area and then returned to the field.


I can see how you can construe that but it's not the case.

You can return to the field from the attack zone.

The attack zone and field are one and the same though.

So in this case, 'return to the field' is just moving him to the field instead of anywhere else. So he never really moved because the attack zone and the field are the same place.



I would agree with you if Invulnerability didn't say, "Your attacking characters that are knocked out..." If Invulnerability instead said, "Instead of knocking out your attacking characters..." which is what it should probably say, I would probably agree with you.
 
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Jared Wood
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The wording is kind of confusing and I can see how an argument could be built around that. But in this instance, the word 'return' is used to say they return to the Field from the Attack Zone (since they technically left the Field and entered the Attack Zone, although both are considered part of the Field).

I agree, the wording should read differently, but looking at the general power level of the other Basic Action Cards, being able to re-trigger When Fielded abilities just seems way too powerful for what this card does.
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Matthew McFarland
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The FAQ is for clarification of the rules, not replacement of them. The rules say that Fielding consists of moving a character from the Reserve to the Field, the FAQ clarifies that that is usually done by paying a cost during the Main phase but can also be done nontraditionally, such as with Gambit.
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Smat Denley
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I think that the issue may be the fact that it occurs outside of the main step. On page 20 of the rule book it says "The term 'when you field [name]' refers to the moment you send a character die from the reserve pool to the field."
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Deusface wrote:


I would agree with you if Invulnerability didn't say, "Your attacking characters that are knocked out..." If Invulnerability instead said, "Instead of knocking out your attacking characters..." which is what it should probably say, I would probably agree with you.


Well, if you are going to do any kind of Tourney play, you have no choice but to agree with me here.

You are free to make up the rules in your side games though.

Were you looking for an answer, or a justification to your idea of what the rules are?

I am not the only stating that's how it's played, so keep that in mind.
 
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John Galietta III
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Smat008 wrote:
I think that the issue may be the fact that it occurs outside of the main step. On page 20 of the rule book it says "The term 'when you field [name]' refers to the moment you send a character die from the reserve pool to the field."


I'm going to echo him here, so everyone can see. The FAQ has nothing to do with this ruling. Rulebook, page 20. A character's "When Fielded" ability happens when he is sent from the reserve pool to the field. Invulnerability does NOT trigger these abilities in any way.
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Kat Farmer
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If a character is KO'd, they go to the prep area.

"Your attacking characters that are knocked out (this turn) return to the field."

So you're saying that a character that is KO'd after using Invulnerability doesn't go to the prep area? But they are KO'd and Invul says:

Your attacking characters that are knocked out

It doesn't say, your characters that would be knocked out. That's the whole basis for my argument. I don't believe that the word return has anything to do with them moving from the Attack Zone to the Field Zone. The Attack Zone is an extension of the Field Zone - says so in the rule book.

Also the FAQ clarifies the 'Fielded' term with:
“When fielded”
effects trigger at the time that a player
moves that character into their Field Zone.


It says nothing about it having to be from the Reserve Pool.

I still believe that Invul triggers "when fielded" abilities until there is more clarity on this.
 
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Mike Beiter
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I don't have the rule book in front of me. But doesn't it say to field someone you have to pay the costs? When fielded effects only occur when you pay said costs unless a card specifically says "field them for free"?
 
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Kat Farmer
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That's not correct.

The FAQ states it correctly:
Q: Please explain “When fielded” effects.
A:“When fielded” effects trigger at the time that a player moves that character into their Field Zone. In most instances, this occurs when a player pays a character’s fielding cost and moves the character from their Reserve Pool to their Field Zone. As an example, Hawkeye, Longbow’s ability allows him to deal his attack value to a target opposing character when he is fielded. Some game effects will allow characters to be fielded in a more non-traditional fashion — such as Gambit Le Diable Blanc. If a character would be fielded from Gambit Le Diable Blanc’s ability, any "when fielded" effects on those characters would trigger.
 
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Mike Beiter
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I see what you are saying. The first sentence does say that the effects trigger when being moved to the field. But the next sentence says this is usually when fielding costs are paid.
Then it gives an example of Gambit as an exception to this norm. And Gambit specifically says you are fielding them.

I still believe that unless a card says to "Field" a character that they are not actually being fielded. Moving a character does not trigger fielding.

Going off the intent of the card, why would being invulnerable and surviving an attack cause you to be re-fielded? They are just being prevented from being KOd. If the card was called ressurection then I would consider it.

Its also a 2 point action. Allowing a character to re-use a fielding effect is quite powerful. I am sure the die would have cost more and been worded differently if that was the intent.

I think the FAQ answer was a bit vague and just needs clarification.
 
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Thomas Landy
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DyerKitty wrote:
If a character is KO'd, they go to the prep area.

"Your attacking characters that are knocked out (this turn) return to the field."

So you're saying that a character that is KO'd after using Invulnerability doesn't go to the prep area? But they are KO'd and Invul says:

Your attacking characters that are knocked out

It doesn't say, your characters that would be knocked out. That's the whole basis for my argument. I don't believe that the word return has anything to do with them moving from the Attack Zone to the Field Zone. The Attack Zone is an extension of the Field Zone - says so in the rule book.

Also the FAQ clarifies the 'Fielded' term with:
“When fielded”
effects trigger at the time that a player
moves that character into their Field Zone.


It says nothing about it having to be from the Reserve Pool.

I still believe that Invul triggers "when fielded" abilities until there is more clarity on this.


You can believe what you want, but it's wrong.

You have characters in the attack zone that would normally get KO'd. Invulnerability says they "return to the field". So instead of moving them to the prep area like normal, they slide back down from the attack zone to the field. Since they are already fielded, it would not trigger "when fielded" effects. Now, you may have an argument if Invulnerability said to take a character from the prep area and return it to the field, but it doesn't. It says knocked out characters return to the field. They don't get knocked out, go to the prep area, and then return to the field.
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Ernie Barrett
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Page 20 of the rulebook states...

Quote:
The term “when you field [name]” refers to the moment you send a character die from
your reserve pool to the field
. It does not refer to assigning the die to attack, since the attack
zone is still considered part of the field. Likewise, “when you field [name]” does not
refer to characters returning to the field from the attack zone, nor does it refer to moving
a captured or controlled die from your opponent’s field to yours.



A knocked out die isnt placed in the reserve pool either. So I see no instance of invulnerbility allowing when fielded effects to happen.
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Dave M
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Part of the problem - and something that WK could do to alleviate confusion on this and several other rules questions that have come up (some of which are resolved at this point) is describe the function of the small KO space on the mat. Currently this is not defined in the rule book, which is a shame.

Given that KO'd characters who have abilities that trigger still have those abilities trigger, given the interpretation of Invulnerability here (which I agree with, this wouldn't trigger anything at all, and the word "return" is key), the KO is clearly acting as an extension of the field just as the attack zone is.

When a die is KO'd it doesn't immediately go to prep, though many if not all players play like it is. But technically, these are separate - just look at every play mat, which distinguishes between them. WK's own mats clearly distinguish between these two, with two arrows leading in from field and attack and one leading out into prep. WK doesn't currently describe them as separate - in fact, again, they don't define them at all! - but I believe that if they did this wouldn't be a question.

So technically, when a character is knocked out, they at least briefly go to the KO zone. It's later that they move to prep. So these characters aren't suddenly being fielded from the prep area, they're returning from KO. Their normal path: Attack -> KO -> Prep is altered to be Attack -> KO -> Field.
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Dave M
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Actually, I looked at the rules and it's simpler than that. We're all reading too much into what this ability is superseding.

First, your basic action "Invulnerability" is played at some point during either your main phase or after blockers have been declared. Now you know that this turn, it's ability holds sway.

The rulebook page 6, under "Assign Damage":

"When a character is knocked out, move it to that player's prep area."

THIS is what Invulnerability is replacing. This turn, your KO'd characters don't go to prep at all - they return to the field.

So those who are on the other side of this - you're equating the state of being knocked out with actually being in KO/Prep. But that's not true. The STATE of being KO'd determines where you go, the rule book makes that very clear at the bottom of P6.

EDIT: I wrote at a bit more length on this one. Here it is.
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Rauli Kettunen
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walterskinnerFBI wrote:
THIS is what Invulnerability is replacing. This turn, your KO'd characters don't go to prep at all - they return to the field.


Aren't you skipping the word "attacking" with this? Not all characters this turn go back to field, only attacking ones, assigned to attack. If I pip your people with Global dmg enough to KO them in the Main Step (or pip my Hulk, who then KOs one of your characters), they're going to the Prep Area, not saying in the field.
 
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Dave M
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Yes, Invulnerability is only impacting attacking characters. I didn't go into it because that wasn't what the debate was about but you are correct. The rules I'm citing are part of the attack step.
 
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Kat Farmer
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So I got an official response from WizKids this weekend about this and many other questions.

This is what they said in regards to this topic:
"Characters returned via the Invulnerability basic action are not fielded. "When fielded", as described in the rulebook's lexicon, takes place when you pay a character's fielding cost."

So in the FAQ, the non-traditional methods of a character being 'fielded' only apply to them coming from the reserve pool. I was so hoping it worked the other way, lol XD
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