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Subject: English Landwehr rss

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Bindusri de Silva
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GCG - TSBEF Rules version 2011_1001

The starting English Force Pool contains a single Landwehr units in a red box with 3 question marks.
However Rule J.8.a states only Austria and Prussia can build Landwehr units.

We suspect the Force Pool is incorrect and J.8.a overrides England's ability to build Landwehr but would appreciate some feedback.

cheers Bindusri
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mike covert
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Look under Scenario X: War and Peace 1805-1815 Campaign Game, Section J: Reinforcements and Replacements (Campaign Game Production), at the end of Section J, just before Section K starts:

The English militia and partisan counters represent Portuguese forces. The English landwehr counters are used to represent the forces of the minor states which England controls.

Cheers and Good Gaming

Just noticed you were referring to The Struggle Between England and France.

I believe the answer is still the same. See GCG J. Production, 3. Minor State Production:

c. Each major state uses special units to represent the forces of a minor state which is under its control. When a minor state is con- trolled by a major state, the appropriately colored satellite units are used to represent the forces of that minor state.
**To Be Fixed With New Counters**
Example: If France controls Bavaria, the French satellite units bearing a "B" designation are used to represent Bavarian forces. If Austria controls Bavaria, Austrian landwehr are used to represent the Bavarian forces. Finally, if Russia controls Bavaria, Russian Cossacks are used to represent the Bavarian forces.

Yea! Finally found where John moved the previous answer. See the end of Deployment in red on page 60. It is the info I initially quoted.

Did not think I would ever find it, but there it was at the end, of course, and in red.
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John Gant
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WooHOO!!

That one was tricky but I think I have all the bases covered regarding Landwehr and the satellite state question. Might need a FAQ if this game gets played enough.

--JokerRulez
 
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Bindusri de Silva
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Quote:
The English militia and partisan counters represent Portuguese forces.


I thought this sentence vaguely referenced the fact that there are no Portuguese militia and partisan counters so that you use the English counters to represent the Portuguese militia and partisan counters, since militia and partisan have a morale of zero anyway and cannot leave their home country so no risk of getting them confused with genuine English militia and partisan counters.

There are Portuguese infantry and cavalry counters which you can use to represent the regular Portuguese forces.

So back to the main question which I think I may need to rephrase, is the English Landwehr unit currently listed in the Force Pool available for the English player to build from Turn 1 of the TSBEF GCG or should it be removed from the Force Pool?

cheers Lakers24
 
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John Gant
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I believe it is available but the necessary requirements to actually build it are not in place at the start of the game.

Please search for contradictions to this statement and I will review them later in the week when I have more time.

--JokerRulez
 
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mike covert
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The relevant potion is the second sentence. You need England to control a minor country in order to have the ability to actually build the Landwehr. So, to answer your two part question:

Yes, the Landwehr is available from Turn 1. You are not able to build it as England does not control any qualifying minor countries.

No, do not remove the Landwehr from the English Force Pool.

Cheers and Good Gaming
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Bindusri de Silva
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Maybe I am mistaken, but I always thought units in the Force Pool were always available to be built and units are removed from the Force Pool when they are no longer able to be built.

For example when a fleet is captured and converted from one side to the other, then the captured ship is removed from the original owner's force pool to signify the ship may not be rebuilt by that player and if it is subsequently sunk added to the capturing player's force pool.

To me this seems a lot less confusing so I will remove the Landwehr from the English Player's Force Pool in our game and only have units in the Force Pool which are able to be built.

cheers Lakers
 
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mike covert
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Examples of Campaign Game Force Pools that do not meet the conditions for building:

These Minors do not exist so are unable to build units;
Dalmatia: 2I
Poland: Poniatowski, 3I, 3C
Naples: 4I
Rhine Confederation: Forces already present as of the Initial Setup are considered pro-French satellite forces but may not be replaced until the Confederation is formed
Westphalia: 3I, 1C

Note: these Minor Countries may be created by France, not must be. Theoretically, all of the units in these force pool, plus their later additions, may not be built. Yet, they are in the Force Pool the entire game.

Austria and Prussia have Landwehr production cities (in black) that an enemy would need to occupy to force surrender(once Landwehr enter play). This means if their red production cities are occupied they cannot build I or C.

Prussia has Konigsberg as a capital, which must be occupied for conquest. This also means that, with red production cities occupied, it cannot build I or C.

Spanish Production Points may not be used to purchase infantry or cavalry replacements unless there are no militia or partisan strength points remaining in the Force Pool. This means they are unable to build I and C if there are M or P in their Force Pool.

In none of the above cases do you remove units from the Force Pool just because you do not meet the requirements to build those units.

Cheers and Good Gaming
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Bindusri de Silva
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Dalmatia:
Poland:
Naples:
Rhine Confederation:
Westphalia:

These minor nations have their own separate Force Pool, distinct from France, so it is not a case of removing them from the French Force Pool. It is more whether these nations are active or not and hence whether they can build.

Fair point is with regard to Austria and Prussia, though I think it generally understood that regular troops can only be built from cities with red infantry symbols, whilst irregular troops can be built from both red and black infantry cities.

For the Spanish special production, the agree the production order needs to be maintained and the other SP not be removed from the Force Pool.

So if England conquers a minor country are they allowed only 1 Landwehr unit to represent that minor nation's force pool or do you use the minor nation's existing force pool as the basis for force pool additions?
What about if Bavaria is conquered by Austria when Bavaria is eligible to be conquered by Bavaria but before Austria gets Force Pool additions of landwehr ie June 1808? Are they not allowed to build Bavarian SP?

This is why to me it makes more sense to do the Force Pool adjustments, as each minor country is conquered etc

As an aside, I consider using Austrian landwehr and especially Russian Cossacks are used to represent the Bavarian forces too weird for game play as how do you tell the difference between what is a genuine Russian Cossack cavalry and what are supposed to represent predominantly Bavarian infantry that requires a leader to move.
My solution when playing across the board is to just use the Bavarian counters as is. They have a "B" on them to identify as Bavarian and counter colour is ignored, as is done if Sweden and Russia go to war.

Online over vassal there is a control icon colour can be adjusted on the counter to indicate controlling major power.

cheers Lakers24
 
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mike covert
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Yes, that is the purpose of the one English Landwehr.

I like John's solution: **To Be Fixed With New Counters**

Your solution is certainly doable, it is your game. I would tend not to give as large a force pool to the anti-french. In other words, if an anti-french power conquers a minor there should be a force reduction.

Ahhh, the War and Peace Campaign game, so much fun, so not thought through.

Really, there are many issues with the GCG. This is one reason why I like what John is doing with 5th edition. I hope he continues. I would like an update of W&P and 1776 even better. No card driven stuff and no design by committee like Imperium 3rd Millennium, just a rework to make work the rules, including errata, Q&A, common sense. Oh yea, what John is doing. There I go repeating myself.

Cheers and Good Gaming
 
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Bindusri de Silva
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The main problem I see with not using the conquered minor's countries existing force pool is "gaming" the situation like allowing Russia or Austria to conquer say Brunswick or Cassel which ordinarily have 1 SP in the force pool each and using their production city to churn out Austrian Landwehr or Russian Cossacks much closer to the French border.

A reduced force pool for the anti-French conquest is certainly an option that can be considered. However rules do need to be developed/agreed to specify the reduction and often K.3.b makes it hard for the Anti-French player to fully utilise the minor nation's full force pool and also spare the leaders to march them over to the battlezones, which is why I am so against allowing Russian Cossacks to be built from minor countries.

cheers Lakers24
 
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John Gant
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Mike got it right, and thank you for the kind words.

Lakers24 wrote:
Maybe I am mistaken, but I always thought units in the Force Pool were always available to be built...


You are not mistaken, however, the availability of forces to be built does not have anything to do with the ability to build them. Mike stated much the same thing.

The sequel, TSBEF, is in pretty good shape with the VASSAL module though it needs development work. The physical world is another matter. I have one hard copy. It isn't difficult to create playing pieces in VASSAL.

Oh, I have been contacted by publishers about this effort. Though I have no time for this effort it is possible it could be picked up one day, developed, and published.

Happy Gaming,

--JokerRulez
 
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