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Subject: A few more votes and Case Blue will be, surprise, A Party Game! rss

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Barton Campbell
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Again and again I read here that if a title is vaguely related to war i.e. Twilight Struggle, then it is to many people a "wargame". In fact, more than half of the games on the so-called wargaming "The Hotness" sidebar are not wargames either. Well, two can play at that game. In other words, aren't all wargames by that train of thought also "strategy" games. Instead of complaining about Twilight Struggle (a decidedly non-wargame) being the number one wargame, why don't we make something like Case Blue the number one "strategy" game? This could actually be done with all wargames or at least the top 50 wargames by rating them all a 10 and catagorizing them as strategy games.

Up to now, wargamers have politely refrained from subverting the BGG categorization system. But for some reason strategy gamers have no such scruples. However, why get mad when we can get ... ”accurate”.

Of course, the whole point of this exercise would not be to confound the BGG catagorization system but to get the BGG moderators to wake up and finally resolve the situation to everyone's mutual satisfaction. How? As a matter of fact this can be done very simply. Consider the following facts: as of today the Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game is catagorized as both a customizable game (51.9%) and a wargame (33%) while Twilight Struggle is catagorized as both a strategy game (58.2%) and a wargame (33%). Clearly the tails are both wagging the dogs here. If BGG would just change the catagorization system so that only the majority categorization prevailed with games also catagorized as wargames the whole problem would disappear.

Why am I suggesting this? I am not trying to be malicious. Rather I’m trying to help BGG become a better and more useful website. It’s ridiculous that more than half the games on the wargaming “The Hotness” sidebar are not even wargames, making "The Hotness" list essencially useless for wargamers. Or that the number one wargame is not even a wargame.

However, until this amical resolution comes to pass I think we could start rating our “favorite” strategy game, Case Blue, for example, far more "accurately".

Wargamers of the World Unite!
We have nothing to lose but Twilight Struggle.

Edit: Thanks for all the great comments and votes. This is too funny!

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Enrico Viglino
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
bartman347 wrote:
Instead of complaining about Twilight Struggle (a decidedly non-wargame) being the number one wargame, why don't we make something like Case Blue the number one "strategy" game?



Because it can't be done without seriously subverting the voting process?

It would require a ton of shill votes as to rating - which nearly certainly
would get caught.


It would be fairly easy to deal with the 30% category on games,
to throw most games into wrong categories though.
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Judd Vance
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
I find I'm a lot happier when I stopped paying attention to the "hotness" and quit worrying what a lot of Eur-ah-gahmers think are wargames. I play ones I like and that works for me.

Now get off my lawn! ninja
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Bill Lawson
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
bartman347 wrote:
We have nothing to lose but Twilight Struggle.


Wrong, I can think of lots of its friends it can take with it!!
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Hunga Dunga
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
For the past year or so, I've only paid attention to what happens in the BGG Wargaming sub-domain.
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Noel Houben
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Personally I don't want to 'lose' Twilight Struggle. Certainly isn't bad in my book that the no 1 game on BGG is categorized as a wargame. It could help bringing flesh blood into the hobby. It might get people to play other CDG's and eventually other sorts of wargames as well. Not a fan of manipulated ratings and categories anyway...
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Some wargamers are revolting already....
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Judd Vance
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
And if we lost Twilight Struggle, what would I do with my MEMEs?





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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
It is a Conflict Avoidance Game

It is not working.
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Jim F
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?

I'm not too fussed about TS because at least it doesn't spam up the Games Forum.

'Star Wars the Star Trek Game' on the other hand...
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Malcolm Corney
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
In this kind of situation I am always reminded of the Crocodile Dundee scene with the mugger and the knife
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Malcolm Corney
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Is this a good time to start the 'is Jack Daniels a whisky?'debate because right now I'm sipping at splendid little glass of Talisker whistle
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David Kershaw
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
I came here really hoping someone had a good idea or game announcement about an Arab Spring game.
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Enrico Viglino
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Michael Dorosh wrote:
bartman347 wrote:
It’s ridiculous that more than half the games on the wargaming “The Hotness” sidebar are not even wargames, making "The Hotness" list essencially useless for wargamers.


It's probably short-sighted to think that only one definition of "wargame" should matter.


Agreed.

Quote:
There are polls for those games that ask users which category they should belong to.


Unfortunately, the 30% agreement criteria is just goofy. At least when
the category is a well-established hobby. The terms for all the other
categories are not particularly linked to anything people can really
dispute in the way that wargame is. I wish they'd drop the term from
their polls. Maybe use war-themed games (since that's what their definition implies).
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
HMSGannet wrote:
Is this a good time to start the 'is Jack Daniels a whisky?'debate because right now I'm sipping at splendid little glass of Talisker whistle


Of course it's a whiskey (with an "e"), it's just not Bourbon.
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Enrico Viglino
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Prop Joe wrote:
HMSGannet wrote:
Is this a good time to start the 'is Jack Daniels a whisky?'debate because right now I'm sipping at splendid little glass of Talisker whistle


Of course it's a whiskey (with an "e"), it's just not Bourbon.


Mmm.,..speaking of whiskey, I've picked up a nice smooth rye right cheaply.
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Pokey 64
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
All games are strategy games but not all strategy games are wargames.


If the subject of the game is war, regardless of time, place or scale, it's a wargame.

Don't be exclusive. It's a big world. We should be inclusive.

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Enrico Viglino
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Michael Dorosh wrote:
calandale wrote:
Unfortunately, the 30% agreement criteria is just goofy. At least when the category is a well-established hobby. The terms for all the other categories are not particularly linked to anything people can really
dispute in the way that wargame is. I wish they'd drop the term from their polls. Maybe use war-themed games (since that's what their definition implies).


I think there is a very good case to be made that "war-themed" games and "wargames" may be separate things. I don't know that you could have a hard and fast rule as to how to define one from another, but failing that, something like a 30% agreement criteria is probably the best you could hope for, so I don't think as you do that it is unreasonable.



I can't think of a wargame that wouldn't be also a war-themed game.

It would be in keeping with 'strategy games' and 'thematic games' as
euphemisms for euros and AT. It also fulfills a need within the
site to be able to accept fringe-cases into a category which means little.
The 30% works fine, if you're not trying to use a word that is the
definition of a hobby. It lumps too much in otherwise.

Quote:
Is there a formal process for reviewing the categories?


Probably not. Maybe some sort of petition in the http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/88/boardgamegeek/bgg-bugs
forum would at least catch some staff attention though. Otherwise,
they largely seem to be disconnected from the site.
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Enrico Viglino
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
panzer6 wrote:


If the subject of the game is war, regardless of time, place or scale, it's a wargame.





Funny, I thought I'd find myself in disagreement, but no, I agree.

Subject implies sufficient adherence to the matter to qualify, IMO.
Chess has no real subject. War themed games that aren't wargames
likely follow the same path.
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Daniel Schulz
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
calandale wrote:
panzer6 wrote:


If the subject of the game is war, regardless of time, place or scale, it's a wargame.





Funny, I thought I'd find myself in disagreement, but no, I agree.

Subject implies sufficient adherence to the matter to qualify, IMO.
Chess has no real subject. War themed games that aren't wargames
likely follow the same path.


So if I change the chess pieces to tanks, and soldiers, and paint a map over the square grid, it's suddenly a wargame? What about rethemed version of checkers?

Words are defined by their use. Back in the 70s, it was pretty clear what a wargame was. These days, there are people who think Call of Duty is a wargame. The goal is to communicate. If I ask the guys over on Saturday to play wargames, it's a pretty safe bet they won't think I'm suggesting rethemed checkers, or Call of Duty.
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Enrico Viglino
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
horrido wrote:
calandale wrote:
panzer6 wrote:


If the subject of the game is war, regardless of time, place or scale, it's a wargame.





Funny, I thought I'd find myself in disagreement, but no, I agree.

Subject implies sufficient adherence to the matter to qualify, IMO.
Chess has no real subject. War themed games that aren't wargames
likely follow the same path.


So if I change the chess pieces to tanks, and soldiers, and paint a map over the square grid, it's suddenly a wargame? What about rethemed version of checkers?



Obviously not. That's all about theme rather than subject.

Chess doesn't represent a real subject. Please don't ask me
what happens if you rethemed OCS to be about My little pony though;
I really don't know what that would be.

Quote:
These days, there are people who think Call of Duty is a wargame.


Oh it is. Just as 'plant' has multiple meanings. There's a relationship,
but the word signifies different things. At BGG, I would presume the
word should reflect those things done by the board wargaming hobby -
as opposed to minis wargamers or computer wargamers.


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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
When He comes, all will be clarified to everyone's satisfaction! cool
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Roger Hobden
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Why can't some wargamers just "let it be" ?

shake


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Judd Vance
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
Mallet wrote:
Why can't some wargamers just "let it be" ?

shake




You and your long haired hippies, get of my lawn!!!
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Re: Arab Spring? How about the Wargamers Spring?
I enjoy the repetition.
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