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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shattered Empire» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can you Sabotage a Sabotage? rss

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Andy

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My apologies if this has been answered elsewhere (couldn't find it in search) or if answered by the card text (my copy isn't available).

Can a Sabotage card be cancelled by a Sabotage card?

Player 1: Plays Local Unrest on Player 2's planet

Player 2: Plays Sabotage to cancel the Local Unrest card

Player 3: Plays Sabotage to cancel Player 2's Sabotage to allow the Local Unrest to happen

Thanks!
 
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Derek Porter
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You may not use a Sabotage to cancel another Sabotage action card. I'm fairly certain this is stated on the card text.
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Guido Gloor
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templarjr wrote:
I'm fairly certain this is stated on the card text.

Yep, it is. No sabotaging sabotages.
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Fax Gerat
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can you sacrifice an agent to counter a sabotage card?
 
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Scott Lewis
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maerlyn wrote:
can you sacrifice an agent to counter a sabotage card?

No, sacrificing an agent is just like playing a sabotage, and follows all sabotage rules.
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Max Wallace
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sigmazero13 wrote:
maerlyn wrote:
can you sacrifice an agent to counter a sabotage card?

No, sacrificing an agent is just like playing a sabotage, and follows all sabotage rules.


The rules say: "An Agent may be sacrificed at any time to act as a “Sabotage” action card."

but acting as one doesn't make them one. They are still an agent. A sabotage action card game text reads:

"This card cannot cancel the effects of another sabotage card".

Since the agent is still an agent, and is merely acting as the card without being the card itself, could it not still cancel a sabotage card since the card only disallows other cards, not agents acting as cards do?
 
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Guido Gloor
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SweatyChimp wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
maerlyn wrote:
can you sacrifice an agent to counter a sabotage card?

No, sacrificing an agent is just like playing a sabotage, and follows all sabotage rules.


The rules say: "An Agent may be sacrificed at any time to act as a “Sabotage” action card."

but acting as one doesn't make them one. They are still an agent. A sabotage action card game text reads:

"This card cannot cancel the effects of another sabotage card".

Since the agent is still an agent, and is merely acting as the card without being the card itself, could it not still cancel a sabotage card since the card only disallows other cards, not agents acting as cards do?

Ah, but when it only acts as a sabotage card and that doesn't make it behave like a sabotage card, can it actually sabotage anything? Following your logic to its natural conclusion, it couldn't. It would only act out the sabotage on a stage, and everybody would be obliged to politely clap at the agent's enthusiasm.
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Scott Lewis
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SweatyChimp wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
maerlyn wrote:
can you sacrifice an agent to counter a sabotage card?

No, sacrificing an agent is just like playing a sabotage, and follows all sabotage rules.


The rules say: "An Agent may be sacrificed at any time to act as a “Sabotage” action card."

but acting as one doesn't make them one. They are still an agent. A sabotage action card game text reads:

"This card cannot cancel the effects of another sabotage card".

Since the agent is still an agent, and is merely acting as the card without being the card itself, could it not still cancel a sabotage card since the card only disallows other cards, not agents acting as cards do?

It either follows the rules for Sabotage cards (which would include not Sabotaging another Sabotage card) or it doesn't (in which case, what does it do exactly?)

However, if you want an "official" answer, there's a form on the Fantasy Flight website to submit rules questions, and you can try that It does sometimes take a while to get a response, I think he probably sets aside time every so often to just plug through rules questions.
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Max Wallace
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haslo wrote:
It would only act out the sabotage on a stage, and everybody would be obliged to politely clap at the agent's enthusiasm.


LOL!

sigmazero13 wrote:
It either follows the rules for Sabotage cards (which would include not Sabotaging another Sabotage card) or it doesn't (in which case, what does it do exactly?)


My interpretation is that the agent borrows the functionality of a sabotage card without being a card itself. You play the agent in place of using the card for essentially the same effect. Since Sabotage cards explicitly mention other cards (and not leaders) they are able to circumvent the drawback the actual cards have. Both this card and leaders come from the base game, so there is no reason this shouldn't be addressed in the leaders section of the rules if this isn't the case.
 
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Scott Lewis
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SweatyChimp wrote:
haslo wrote:
It would only act out the sabotage on a stage, and everybody would be obliged to politely clap at the agent's enthusiasm.


LOL!

sigmazero13 wrote:
It either follows the rules for Sabotage cards (which would include not Sabotaging another Sabotage card) or it doesn't (in which case, what does it do exactly?)


My interpretation is that the agent borrows the functionality of a sabotage card without being a card itself. You play the agent in place of using the card for essentially the same effect. Since Sabotage cards explicitly mention other cards (and not leaders) they are able to circumvent the drawback the actual cards have. Both this card and leaders come from the base game, so there is no reason this shouldn't be addressed in the leaders section of the rules if this isn't the case.

The card doesn't address the leaders because it is independent of leaders, and leaders are an optional rule.

The rules for agent are pretty clear, in my opinion - it acts like a Sabotage card in all respects; so even though the Sabotage card being played first says "cards", the Agent is acting as if it was a card when being used that way.

When it boils down to it, the question is "what was the intent" - and the intent is that Sabotage cards cannot, themselves, be Sabotaged. I'm pretty sure that the designer even said this at one point in a rules question; I'd have to look. But even if not, if asked, I can say with certainty that he would confirm that is how it should be interpreted

Again, though, if you really want an official answer, unfortunately you won't get it on BGG (unless someone posts a response from the designer); you'd have to submit a rules question for it.
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