Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » General

Subject: Traitor mechanic and staying hidden rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: hardclaim [+] [View All]
Nash
msg tools
mb
Hey all, I've pre-ordered the game and reading up on the discussions here while I wait for my copy. I've played a lot of BSG, Resistance, Werewolf etc. and understand this game is actually more like a semi-competitive resource management game than a social deduction game.

With that said though the rules seem to suggest that if you are the betrayer its easier to stay within the colony to win than it is once you've been exiled.

With the goal of staying hidden, one thing for me that does stand out is that the items cards are labelled where they come from. Looking at the board/rules it seems to suggest a group could easily separate players into specific locations to limit the amount of spiking of crises.

Would love to hear from play testers who played as the traitor what they did to win and how they managed to stay hidden?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, I would like to hear about anyone's experiences asking all good players to hardclaim their secret objectives (which is valid according to the rules, but perhaps against the spirit of the game...unclear), and if this helps ferret out the traitor. This was debated to death on the "Origins" thread, but, well, I never get tried of topics like this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JonnyRotten
United States
Montpelier
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One thing that works for the betrayer, is that each player starts with 5 Starter cards. So keep back one or two of them. You usually only need 1 to spike a Crisis check later in the game.

I've also got bitten by the location labels. I spent the whole game searching at the police station, by myself. Another player got over there for one turn to "help me out" and kill some of the zombies. He also searched once, and then took off the next turn. A few turns later, we don't remember that. A check fails with police station card. Guess who got exiled, and who was the betrayer.

The betrayer has a lot of tricks he can use to turn the Colony against itself. It's not hard. With tension and suspicion running high. One wrong move can turn the other players against you. A betrayer can then capitalize on that momentum.

I don't want to talk too much about the betrayer strategy, as I think discovering that is part of the fun, but there is plenty there.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JonnyRotten
United States
Montpelier
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
Also, I would like to hear about anyone's experiences asking all good players to hardclaim their secret objectives (which is valid according to the rules, but perhaps against the spirit of the game...unclear), and if this helps ferret out the traitor. This was debated to death on the "Origins" thread, but, well, I never get tried of topics like this.


If at all possible, I'd like to keep that discussion confined to the Origins thread, as I feel it's went it's route, and you'll see better once you get to play. Many playtesters chimed in over there. Since this is a separate question, I'd prefer to stick to it.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon M
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nash,

Hi there! I was a playtester and I played as the traitor 3 times, IIRC, and I won once.

The betrayer's goal/objective is two part, just like the regular objectives. One general/common objective (reduce morale to 0) and one specific goal.

So, to your first question/point - Yes, I feel like it much easier to win with these two objectives than to be open and exiled. When exiled you lose the general objective of reducing morale and you take on a new objective from the exile cards while still having to complete the second specific goal. This can really throw things off later in the game. Also, as you will see below, there are tons of ways to actively and passively reduce morale.

You control multiple characters, so it is possible to dip into 3-4 different locations by the second round of the game, so the "spiking of the crisis" shouldn't be as telling if you are playing those cards smartly: e.g. cards from locations that least one other player have visited. Also, you can spike using starter cards which everyone gets.

That said, you do not have to reduce morale by spiking the crisis. People will die, that reduces morale.

1 - You can make noise at locations to increase the zombie count/exposure risk, but at a reasonable level that you can explain it away ("We need medicine and we will still be safe this round if 2 more show up than expected!").

2 - You can choose not to contribute to a crisis once or twice. That can reduce morale.

3 - Hold on to food cards and force the group to starvation.

4 - If you have achieved your specific goal and are going last, you can go on a killing spree to reduce morale with impunity since you have to wait until the next round for someone to call a vote for exile.

5 - Choosing suboptimal options on Crossroads cards. ("We can't lose the barriers at the Colony. We have to take the risk of gaining these frostbite wounds to make sure we survive long term).

6 - Neglecting to clean the trash/using consumable cards that fill the trash more quickly.

And there are many other ways. It isn't just through spiking the crisis you can mess things up.

The way I won was this:

My goal was to start a cult. At that point in playtesting, this was to have 2 more survivors than any other player and have a weapon on equipped to each survivor I controlled, IIRC. So, when a crossroads card came up that allowed me to loot the police station in exchange for adding to the team objective "have locations x,y,z free of zombies", I made the argument that with enough weapons we could do this, especially with the locations having no zombies on them at the time.

I was able to outfit all my survivors with guns through that maneuver and then I focused on slowly reducing morale while everyone fought to complete the old objective AND the new addition. I did this mainly through neglect and making a little noise here and there to get other players characters killed so I didn't have to get new survivors, which would need weapons of their own.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Haney
United States
Keller
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JBMoby wrote:


My goal was to start a cult (at the time in playtesting, this was to have 2 more survivors than any other player and have a weapon on each, IIRC).


I'm sorry, IIRC? wassat?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Woll
United States
Warsaw
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
Also, I would like to hear about anyone's experiences asking all good players to hardclaim their secret objectives (which is valid according to the rules, but perhaps against the spirit of the game...unclear), and if this helps ferret out the traitor. This was debated to death on the "Origins" thread, but, well, I never get tried of topics like this.


It doesn't break the game if that's what you're worried about.
(I'm not sure where the "Origins" thread is or I would chime in over there)

Also, the traitor isn't the only one with incentive to lie. This is not a cooperative game so I have no incentive to share my real secret objective even if I'm not a traitor. That's like asking all the players in Lords of Waterdeep to share their secret objectives. Only a fool would give his opponents information that could be used to prevent a win.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Arbogast
United States
Norcross
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PootJenkins wrote:
JBMoby wrote:


My goal was to start a cult (at the time in playtesting, this was to have 2 more survivors than any other player and have a weapon on each, IIRC).


I'm sorry, IIRC? wassat?


IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.
2 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon M
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nswoll wrote:
It doesn't break the game if that's what you're worried about.
(I'm not sure where the "Origins" thread is or I would chime in over there)


Origins
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nswoll wrote:
It doesn't break the game if that's what you're worried about.
(I'm not sure where the "Origins" thread is or I would chime in over there)

Also, the traitor isn't the only one with incentive to lie. This is not a cooperative game so I have no incentive to share my real secret objective even if I'm not a traitor. That's like asking all the players in Lords of Waterdeep to share their secret objectives. Only a fool would give his opponents information that could be used to prevent a win.
Well, sort of. In LoW, there is no traitor. If LoW had traitor mechanism, a shared goal everyone minus the traitor had to accomplish, and a personal goal each player had to accomplish, then sharing the personal goals might make sense. I don't know if it does make sense, but it's possible. I do agree with you that you'd never share your personal goal in LoW. But I just don't think you can compare the two games.

By your comment "it doesn't break the game," I take it to mean you've tried this?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jgilmour wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Also, I would like to hear about anyone's experiences asking all good players to hardclaim their secret objectives (which is valid according to the rules, but perhaps against the spirit of the game...unclear), and if this helps ferret out the traitor. This was debated to death on the "Origins" thread, but, well, I never get tried of topics like this.


If at all possible, I'd like to keep that discussion confined to the Origins thread, as I feel it's went it's route, and you'll see better once you get to play. Many playtesters chimed in over there. Since this is a separate question, I'd prefer to stick to it.
Sorry!

Perhaps what I meant to suggest is, if you've ever played the traitor role during a game when the good players have hardclaimed their personal objectives, how did you win?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian K
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am also very curious about this.
It seems in the good players interest to make everyone say what their secret objective is. It guess some good player may lie about it but if the traitor is a new player, it is hard to lie if you don't know any of the real objectives.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon M
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
jgilmour wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Also, I would like to hear about anyone's experiences asking all good players to hardclaim their secret objectives (which is valid according to the rules, but perhaps against the spirit of the game...unclear), and if this helps ferret out the traitor. This was debated to death on the "Origins" thread, but, well, I never get tried of topics like this.


If at all possible, I'd like to keep that discussion confined to the Origins thread, as I feel it's went it's route, and you'll see better once you get to play. Many playtesters chimed in over there. Since this is a separate question, I'd prefer to stick to it.
Sorry!

Perhaps what I meant to suggest is, if you've ever played the traitor role during a game when the good players have hardclaimed their personal objectives, how did you win?


The "Origins" thread is the defacto hardclaim discussion thread. There are 5 pages of discussion related to subject (mostly). Please post additional questions over there. I'll gladly respond on that thread.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JBMoby wrote:
The "Origins" thread is the defacto hardclaim discussion thread. There are 5 pages of discussion related to subject (mostly). Please post additional questions over there. I'll gladly respond on that thread.
I suspect we'll see quite a few more threads on this topic once it opens up to a wider audience than playtesters. This is the central focus of most BGG topics on games with personal objectives and possible traitors. (See Archipelago's threads for evidence of this.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon M
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
JBMoby wrote:
The "Origins" thread is the defacto hardclaim discussion thread. There are 5 pages of discussion related to subject (mostly). Please post additional questions over there. I'll gladly respond on that thread.
I suspect we'll see quite a few more threads on this topic once it opens up to a wider audience than playtesters. This is the central focus of most BGG topics on games with personal objectives and possible traitors. (See Archipelago's threads for evidence of this.)


Maybe, but not every thread here must be made into a discussion on hardclaiming by you.

Please start a new thread to discuss it and refrain from injecting it into unrelated threads (Origins) or partially related threads such as this one.

I don't want to see more OPs drowned out by high frequency posters (you, me, etc) carrying on unrelated discussion that they were not seeking.

Again, there are five pages of discussion on the Origins thread, and I am sure I am not alone in wanting to avoid every mechanic/rules question thread being diverted into a discussion on the merits of hardclaiming.
10 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JonnyRotten
United States
Montpelier
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JBMoby wrote:
Please start a new thread to discuss it and refrain from injecting it into unrelated threads (Origins) or partially related threads such as this one.

I don't want to see more OPs drowned out by high frequency posters (you, me, etc) carrying on unrelated discussion that they were not seeking.

Again, there are five pages of discussion on the Origins thread, and I am sure I am not alone in wanting to avoid every mechanic/rules question thread being diverted into a discussion on the merits of hardclaiming.


I would be happy(ish) to continue the discussion over there, though I thought it was over. I agree though. Lets keep this thread on topic.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JBMoby wrote:
Maybe, but not every thread here must be made into a discussion on hardclaiming by you.
True! If you wanna see me really get going, just ask me about Kickstarter.

Quote:
Again, there are five pages of discussion on the Origins thread, and I am sure I am not alone in wanting to avoid every mechanic/rules question thread being diverted into a discussion on the merits of hardclaiming.
You misinterpret me. I personally don't plan on bringing up the topic in most venues (this post seemed relevant of course, and actually if you look back in the history, there are like 3-4 threads that have no participation by me on this topic). My point is that once it gets a wide release, many review threads will be focused on if this aspect of the game works or not, since it's the one most fragile and player-dependent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Bobson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Anyway, ignoring all the Off Topic stuff about 'hardclaiming' (Man, I hate that word)

I think the main way that a traitor would win would be by playing sub-optimally. I think it's quite a fine line between taking what could be explained as 'calculated risks' and outright obvious attempts to tank the game. It will certainly need a touch of subtlety and some really smart lies.

I think the game appears to throw plenty of things at the colony though (Zombies, crisis cards, waste, exposure dice, multiple search locations, crossroads cards etc) that will cause splits in the group, not just from a physical location but also from a decision making point of view, and it will be a clever traitor who would exploit that by doing some of the things said above like trying to frame another player etc.

But at the end of the day, even if you massively mess it up and are exiled, it's not like you're out of the game, you still have stuff to do, which I think is an excellent mechanic. In games like Shadows over Camelot, if you're revealed as the traitor, all you can do is steal cards from other players, which is nowhere near as fun as travelling between locations, trying to murder any colony member that dares venture outside the colony!
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nash
msg tools
mb
Thanks all for the replies. Seems like selling sub-optimal play is the main tactic. I am concerned that only works with newer groups and experienced groups would cut down/see through sub-optimal plays. Hopefully the selfish nature of the secret goals might be the saving grace.

Is there anywhere I could see a list of all the secret goals? I'm curious about overlap/competitive nature between non-betrayers
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moose Detective
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
Than Sense
badge
Is it a moose that became a detective ? Or a detective who searches for moose?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nashable wrote:
Thanks all for the replies. Seems like selling sub-optimal play is the main tactic. I am concerned that only works with newer groups and experienced groups would cut down/see through sub-optimal plays. Hopefully the selfish nature of the secret goals might be the saving grace.

Is there anywhere I could see a list of all the secret goals? I'm curious about overlap/competitive nature between non-betrayers


See, this is a mistake. If you don't know all the secret goals, and your opponents don't know all the secret goals... then there's even less chance of shenanigans.

Just be surprised. It'll make the game even more fun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nash
msg tools
mb
stevelabny wrote:
nashable wrote:
Thanks all for the replies. Seems like selling sub-optimal play is the main tactic. I am concerned that only works with newer groups and experienced groups would cut down/see through sub-optimal plays. Hopefully the selfish nature of the secret goals might be the saving grace.

Is there anywhere I could see a list of all the secret goals? I'm curious about overlap/competitive nature between non-betrayers


See, this is a mistake. If you don't know all the secret goals, and your opponents don't know all the secret goals... then there's even less chance of shenanigans.

Just be surprised. It'll make the game even more fun.


That's fair but does that mean this game has limited long term replayability?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Bobson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nashable wrote:
stevelabny wrote:
nashable wrote:
Thanks all for the replies. Seems like selling sub-optimal play is the main tactic. I am concerned that only works with newer groups and experienced groups would cut down/see through sub-optimal plays. Hopefully the selfish nature of the secret goals might be the saving grace.

Is there anywhere I could see a list of all the secret goals? I'm curious about overlap/competitive nature between non-betrayers


See, this is a mistake. If you don't know all the secret goals, and your opponents don't know all the secret goals... then there's even less chance of shenanigans.

Just be surprised. It'll make the game even more fun.


That's fair but does that mean this game has limited long term replayability?


Of course not. But unless you expect your friends to read all the cards too, you'll be going into a game with a massive advantage. Just learn them as you play
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon M
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nashable wrote:
Thanks all for the replies. Seems like selling sub-optimal play is the main tactic. I am concerned that only works with newer groups and experienced groups would cut down/see through sub-optimal plays. Hopefully the selfish nature of the secret goals might be the saving grace.

Is there anywhere I could see a list of all the secret goals? I'm curious about overlap/competitive nature between non-betrayers


Take a look at this post I put up on the Origins thread regarding secret goal interaction.

a general overview of how non-betrayer objectives can interact

The game does work after repeated plays with experienced players. Our playtest group played with the same group of 3 guys at the center of every game when we were playtesting. The way the game is structured, sub-optimal play is hard to distinguish from playing the your best but with cards that don't really help out this round.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nash
msg tools
mb
Mangoose wrote:
nashable wrote:
stevelabny wrote:
nashable wrote:
Thanks all for the replies. Seems like selling sub-optimal play is the main tactic. I am concerned that only works with newer groups and experienced groups would cut down/see through sub-optimal plays. Hopefully the selfish nature of the secret goals might be the saving grace.

Is there anywhere I could see a list of all the secret goals? I'm curious about overlap/competitive nature between non-betrayers


See, this is a mistake. If you don't know all the secret goals, and your opponents don't know all the secret goals... then there's even less chance of shenanigans.

Just be surprised. It'll make the game even more fun.


That's fair but does that mean this game has limited long term replayability?


Of course not. But unless you expect your friends to read all the cards too, you'll be going into a game with a massive advantage. Just learn them as you play


Well more from a teach the game perspective. I'm very lucky that I have a group of friends that play board games on a regular basis. The only drawback (which really isn't a drawback) is that games get a limited time to shine or they are dumped. Considering I'm paying for the copy I want to be able to understand the meta of the game so I don't A) Teach it wrong and B) My friends don't get fixed on an aspect of the game that really isn't there.

Let me ask this is another way then. Can some give some ideas of objectives and how many of them overlap?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JonnyRotten
United States
Montpelier
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JBMoby's link one post up will point you to a post about it.

There are 10 Betrayal cards, and (IIRC) 20 Non-betrayal Objectives.

Lot's of overlap, and non-betrayal cards that require the players to do betrayer-ish things.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.