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Subject: Sample win rss

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Mark Schafer
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I can't find anyone to play with, so I decided to play a game by myself, pretending I'm four people. I would play each player's turn with disregard to what they actually hold--only what they should know. I'm good at that. I named the four players Me, Carl, Earl, and Frederick.

At first, I scored 22 doing that. Then I thought I could do better with the same arrangement. I could play it again since I recorded everything. But I couldn't make that deck work.

So I started again with a new random deck, and this time, I won! I've only been playing the game for about seven weeks, but I've been reading about how to play. The nifty thing is 3 times in the game someone had a duplicate of a playable card, and I handled it in 3 different ways! It makes me wonder, could I really win if I can get three players who think like me? Or, in spite of my efforts, did I made illogical plays based on what the players weren't supposed to know?

I'm posting the transcript here in case someone wants to study it. Every time someone's hand changes, I give their entire hand in discard order, starting with the chop card, and I highlight the card that was just drawn. And every time a clue is given, I reaveal how many are left. That should make it pretty easy to follow. The first clue was pure--I didn't look at my hand before giving the clue. It may be an unorthodox clue, but I believe it to be the right play, and since I won, it can't be all bad. The experts may criticize it saying it was the lucky deal that gave me the win, or I failed to ignore a player's hand. You be the judge.

Here it is:

Starting hands:

Me: 2W 1Y 4Y 3R
Carl: 5Y IG 1B 5G
Earl: 5R 2G 1W 1B
Frederick: 3W 5B 1R 1R

The play:

Turn 1
M-C has 2 5's (7)
C-E has 2 1's (6)
E-Play 1B (5R 2G *2G* 1W)
F-M has a 1 (5)

Turn 2
M-C has 2 G's (4)
C-Play 1G (1B *4W* 5Y 5G)
E-Play 1W (5R 2G 2G *3G*)
F-M has a W (3)

Turn 3
M-Play 1Y (4Y 3R *2R* 2W)
C-E has a 5 (2)
E-F has 2 1's (1)
F-Play 1R (1R 3W 5B *2B*)

Turn 4
M-Play 2W
C-Discard 1B (4W *4W* 5Y 5G)
E-F has a 2 (1)
F-Play 2B (1R 3W 5B *2W*)

Turn 5
M-Discard 4Y (3R 2R 3Y *3B*)
C-F has a 3 (1)
E-M has a 2 (0)
F-Play 3W (1R 5B 2W *3B*)

Turn 6
M-Play 2R (3R 3Y 3B *1G*)
C-Discard 4W (4W *3Y* 5Y 5G)
E-Discard 2G (2G 3G *1R* 5R)
F-M has a R (1)

Turn 7
M-E has a 2 (0)
C-Play 4W (3Y *1Y* 5Y 5G)
E-Play 2G (3G 1R *4G* 5R)
F-Discard 1R (5B 2W 3B *2B*)

Turn 8
M-Discard 3Y (3B 1G *1B* 3R)
C-E has a 3 (1)
E-Discard 1R (4G *1W* 3G 5R)
F-C has a 3 (1)

Turn 9
M-C has 3 Y's (0)
C-Discard 1Y (*3R* 3Y 5Y 5G)
E-F has a 5 (0)
F-Discard 2W (3B 2B *4Y* 5B)

Turn 10
M-Play 3R (3B 1G 1B *1W*)
C-Discard 3R (*4R* 3Y 5Y 5G)
E-Play 3G (4G 1W *4R* 5R)
F-M has a 3 (1)

Turn 11
M-Play 3B (1G 1B 1W *2Y*)
C-E has 2 R's (0)
E-Play 4R (4G 1W *1Y* 5R)
F-Discard 3B (2B 4Y *2R* 5B)

Turn 12
M-Discard 1G (1B 1W 2Y *3W*)
C-E has a G (1)
E-Play 4G (1W 1Y *2Y* 5R)
F-M has a 2 (0)

Turn 13
M-Play 2Y (1B 1W 3W *4G*)
C-Play 5G (4R *3G* 3Y 5Y)
E-Play 5R (1W 1Y 2Y *4B*)
F-E has a B (1)

Turn 14
M-F has a Y (0)
C-Play 3Y (4R 3G *1G* 5Y)
E-Play 4B (1W 1Y 2Y *5W*)
F-Play 4Y (2B 2R *4B* 5B)

Turn 15
M-Discard 1B
C-Play 5Y
E-Play 5W
F-Play 5B

Total: 25!
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David Montgomery
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On Turn 2 - Carl didn't know he had any 1's, so how could he play one?

I'm sure there are some other logic jumps, but it's hard to follow everything.

Overall, it's really hard to not make some logic jumps because you know what's in your own hand.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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First move of t2. Carl was told about his mysterious green cards. whistle
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Dylan Thurston
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I find the logic leaps and intuition one can use while playing with real, live people to be very important: you might well find you can win!
 
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Robb Effinger
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SevenSpirits wrote:
First move of t2. Carl was told about his mysterious green cards. whistle


Which is slightly sketchy, in that M has an unknown 1 in hand when he clues Carl's 1. There is an argument to be made that M can guess that his 1 is unlikely to be G, since F could have given C the Green's clue if he wanted the G1 played, but the counter-argument is that M has something at his chop that F didn't want discarded, and F didn't feel confident discarding on T1.

--
Turn 3
M-Play 1Y (4Y 3R *2R* 2W)
- Not sure why M didn't play the W2 here, given that he can see the W3 and not the Y2. Seems like he risks him having the R1, which gives F have no playable cards in hand, which would result in F discarding the W3.

--
Turn 7
C-Play 4W (3Y *1Y* 5Y 5G)
- I think this was an unclued play that seems sketchy? I'm aware that he discarded one on the previous turn, but clues have been tight, so it seems reasonable that people might let the first W4 get discarded, and deal with it later.

Having trouble following what's known in hands, and what's been played, after that. I think it may be easier to follow if you didn't move known cards around in the hand, but instead bolded the known element(s) of them? And it may also be easier if hands were posted no matter what the action was.
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Bill Eldard
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To me, playing Hanabi solitaire is like playing Hide & Seek with yourself.
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James Rousselle
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Bill, I can't agree with you. Our gaming group has developed a system of conventions (that some say is cheating) that gives us a very good chance of scoring 30. I often test proposed changes to our conventions solitaire.
 
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Remy Suen
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JGRno5 wrote:
Our gaming group has developed a system of conventions (that some say is cheating) that gives us a very good chance of scoring 30. I often test proposed changes to our conventions solitaire.

Interesting. What kind of conventions are we talking about here, James? Care to share some examples?

In our group we just have discussions and/or try to run through scenarios in our own heads before bringing it forward to the group. If that's what you mean by testing solitaire then I guess we do the same.
 
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Bill Eldard
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JGRno5 wrote:
Bill, I can't agree with you. Our gaming group has developed a system of conventions (that some say is cheating) that gives us a very good chance of scoring 30. I often test proposed changes to our conventions solitaire.


So, with perfect knowledge of all the hands, you can score 30 (using the rainbow suit as well) most of the time.

I don't find that at all surprising.

As for developing conventions within a group, I'm sure there are many that can be built by varying voice inflections, using particular fingers/hands used to point at cards, or blatant directions like "Okay, Bobby, bring it home now" as I lay my green 4, and Bobby plays his sole green card, which happens to be -- ta-da -- a 5.

To each his own to modify as one wishes. We prefer not using any conventions. We consider a score of 20 or 22 to be quite good and it encourages us to keep trying.
 
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Mark Schafer
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Robb wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
First move of t2. Carl was told about his mysterious green cards. whistle


Which is slightly sketchy, in that M has an unknown 1 in hand when he clues Carl's 1. There is an argument to be made that M can guess that his 1 is unlikely to be G, since F could have given C the Green's clue if he wanted the G1 played, but the counter-argument is that M has something at his chop that F didn't want discarded, and F didn't feel confident discarding on T1.


That's exactly where I was going. It's a technique I use all the time. Once someone knows they have a 5, and they draw a playable card of the same color, tell them its color. That way they know what color their 5 is and can play it without a clue later. The reasoning would work this way:

"Let's see... I already know that's a 5, and now I know what color it is. Why do I need to know the color of this other card? Because it's playable."


Quote:
--
Turn 3
M-Play 1Y (4Y 3R *2R* 2W)
- Not sure why M didn't play the W2 here, given that he can see the W3 and not the Y2. Seems like he risks him having the R1, which gives F have no playable cards in hand, which would result in F discarding the W3.


This comes from something I read here. It stressed the importance of getting the 1's played as soon as possible. So I figure if you have a choice to play a 1 or 2, play the 1.

I actually haven't heard of your idea. If you have a choice between A and B, play the one that has the more immediate future. It's an intriguing idea I had not thought of. Would it trump playing 1's as soon as possible? It wouldn't come up much, I'm sure.

Quote:
--
Turn 7
C-Play 4W (3Y *1Y* 5Y 5G)
- I think this was an unclued play that seems sketchy? I'm aware that he discarded one on the previous turn, but clues have been tight, so it seems reasonable that people might let the first W4 get discarded, and deal with it later.


At the time, I believed I was doing a trick I read here. If your teammates let you discard a playable card, it must be because you hold its duplicate. Carl knew which card it had to be because he knew his other two cards were 5's. The same thing happened to Earl with the Green 2, but he couldn't narrow it down as well.

Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to admit defeat here. Because I think you're right. Carl's most likely conclusion as to why they didn't clue it was they had bigger fish to fry, not that he held the duplicate. I had everyone on the same page, so that's why I didn't have anyone clue him about his remaining 4. I didn't think that it hadn't been playable long enough for him to conclude he held the duplicate. Believe me, I tried to come up with a way to spin it to save it, but have to concede the point. You busted my perfect game! I knew I did something wrong.

But your idea above is interesting. What if I fix that by playing the White 2 instead? Then white would be on a faster track and the game might reach the playable White 4 discard while it was playable longer, and Carl could conclude he held the duplicate. The perfect game might still be in there.

Anyway, thanks for your response.
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Sean McCarthy
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scharkbite wrote:


That's exactly where I was going. It's a technique I use all the time. Once someone knows they have a 5, and they draw a playable card of the same color, tell them its color. That way they know what color their 5 is and can play it without a clue later. The reasoning would work this way:

"Let's see... I already know that's a 5, and now I know what color it is. Why do I need to know the color of this other card? Because it's playable."


The issue that Robb pointed out is not that's it's a bad or confusing play in general. The problem is that M has a 1 in hand and doesn't know what color it is. So M giving any clue about 1s in other players hands risks cluing the same card that he's holding that's been clued.


Quote:
This comes from something I read here. It stressed the importance of getting the 1's played as soon as possible. So I figure if you have a choice to play a 1 or 2, play the 1.

I actually haven't heard of your idea. If you have a choice between A and B, play the one that has the more immediate future. It's an intriguing idea I had not thought of. Would it trump playing 1's as soon as possible? It wouldn't come up much, I'm sure.


Well the purpose the general rule of prioritizing 1s over other ranks is that in a vacuum, playing a 1 unlocks more future plays. The 1 is a prerequisite for 4 future plays, while the white 2 is only a prerequisite for 3 future plays. But that's just the statistical baseline absent any specific knowledge. In this case you can look around and see that playing the 2 is more useful.

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Zed TwoEggs
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I've played Hanabi 2p quite a bit solo. I random the deck in an excel spreadsheet and bold/color the numbers/colors I know. My system is pretty structured so it's fairly easy to be objective.
 
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Mark Schafer
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SevenSpirits wrote:
scharkbite wrote:


That's exactly where I was going. It's a technique I use all the time. Once someone knows they have a 5, and they draw a playable card of the same color, tell them its color. That way they know what color their 5 is and can play it without a clue later. The reasoning would work this way:

"Let's see... I already know that's a 5, and now I know what color it is. Why do I need to know the color of this other card? Because it's playable."


The issue that Robb pointed out is not that's it's a bad or confusing play in general. The problem is that M has a 1 in hand and doesn't know what color it is. So M giving any clue about 1s in other players hands risks cluing the same card that he's holding that's been clued.


Ok, well, it wasn't what killed the perfect game, but I still think this play is justified. I didn't tell Carl he had a 1; I told him he had green. Therefore, he knew what color his 1 was. He can see the 1 that was clued in my hand. If it doesn't match, he can play it, and everything is fine. If it does match, he can discard it telling me that mine is green. Either way, he knows what color one of his 5's is. So therefore, there won't be a strike or a totally wasted clue. The odds were with me on this. And it would be all the more difficult to achieve a perfect game if you had to do it without risk.

Quote:
Quote:
This comes from something I read here. It stressed the importance of getting the 1's played as soon as possible. So I figure if you have a choice to play a 1 or 2, play the 1.

I actually haven't heard of your idea. If you have a choice between A and B, play the one that has the more immediate future. It's an intriguing idea I had not thought of. Would it trump playing 1's as soon as possible? It wouldn't come up much, I'm sure.


Well the purpose the general rule of prioritizing 1s over other ranks is that in a vacuum, playing a 1 unlocks more future plays. The 1 is a prerequisite for 4 future plays, while the white 2 is only a prerequisite for 3 future plays. But that's just the statistical baseline absent any specific knowledge. In this case you can look around and see that playing the 2 is more useful.



Thanks for the tip. I'm glad no one had a problem with the way I handled Frederick's duplicate Red 1 or my unorthodox first clue.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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scharkbite wrote:

Ok, well, it wasn't what killed the perfect game, but I still think this play is justified. I didn't tell Carl he had a 1; I told him he had green. Therefore, he knew what color his 1 was. He can see the 1 that was clued in my hand. If it doesn't match, he can play it, and everything is fine. If it does match, he can discard it telling me that mine is green. Either way, he knows what color one of his 5's is. So therefore, there won't be a strike or a totally wasted clue. The odds were with me on this. And it would be all the more difficult to achieve a perfect game if you had to do it without risk.


Two points:

1) Sure, you may need to take some risks... but that is not a helpful risk. M has a perfectly good play, and C has a perfectly good discard.

2) You say it would not be a totally wasted clue if M also held a green 1... but it very likely would. That green 1 is on its way to be discarded regardless, with no cards of any value placed before it. And while the green 5 information might come in handy later, usually color information on 5s comes automatically during the course of the game, without having to spend a full clue on it.
 
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