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Subject: Overall Strength of Each Hero rss

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Jordan S.
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Having played the PnP games a couple of times, I still don't have a firm grasp on the tiers of the heroes. I'm hoping others can chime in with their experience.

I think the Sorcerer is far and away the best hero. I would want him in every game. He makes the easy mode really easy and brings a strong fighting chance to other modes. Best synergy is to load up the Ruins with threat from other regions and blast it away all at once. Makes the dragon and the demon much easier and makes the giant a total joke. (Based on my understanding of the rules, you can only use his special ability one time per turn on the demon, using the AP that you sacrificed health for and one of your 3 regular AP to fuel the ability).

I'm torn on the overall ranking of the next two. I think they're pretty equivalent, but depends on the number of players. I think the Warrior has a slight edge on the Cleric.

The Warrior's special ability is situational, but useful when you absolutely need to get there. I think the real advantage to the Warrior is 5 HP. This just makes him an absolute monster when defending, especially in regions such as the Plains.

The Cleric is best when paired with the Warrior or the Barbarian. I can see why his ability is limited, and I think that makes him the most generic hero. Regen one HP, and get normal actions. Great beginner hero and extremely helpful.

The Barbarian is tough. I'm not sure that his special ability limits him too much. I'd almost rather see him have 3 health but still be able to regen to full at the capital. The 2 health regen limit on the capital means that he spends a lot of time running back to heal, even if he doesn't use his power at all. I don't think the Barbarian is fun to play unless a you have a cleric buddy. I certainly would hate to draw the Barb in a 4 player game. I understand that if he could heal to full and had 4 health he would be too strong, but he seems very weak with the 2 hp limit.

I've only played solo with 2 heroes so far (3 games), and I think my ideal dream team is either the Warrior/Sorc for a relatively easy time, or the Barb/Cleric for a challenge. (difficulties being the same, of course). The latter duo I would have the Barb sitting in the Plains next to the Ruins or the Forest with the Desert on the other side, and have the cleric running to the Forest to defend the other half while healing the Barbarian. I still need to try this out on harder difficulties but it worked well on a game where the Desert/Plains/Forest half was getting slammed. I think if the Hordes tilted to the other half of the kingdom the cleric would have a tougher time keeping up.

I don't have any of the prototype heroes, but feel free to chime in if you do. Very interested in hearing if I'm playing one of these guys incorrectly or what others think on strength.
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Raithyn
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My experience mirrors yours exactly. I also have the Warlord (now Commander I believe). He can move other heroes and pairs extremely well with the Barbarian as a result.
 
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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I agree with you about everything. Sorcerer is boss, Warrior is best for HP, not his power, I really don't find the Barbarian very useful, but I also find the Sorcerer and the Cleric to be a great combo.
 
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Greg Gresik
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The Barbarian is huge against the Demon, due to his ability to sacrifice HP more than once.
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Scott Almes
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The Barbarian is an Epic Foe killer in general
 
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Dana Dawson
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Barbarian + Cleric rock.

There is another combo I discover but it actually ruined our games because is nearly unbeatable on easy or medium level
 
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Jordan S.
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blackholexan wrote:
Barbarian + Cleric rock.

There is another combo I discover but it actually ruined our games because is nearly unbeatable on easy or medium level


After you've played a few times, easy or medium level should be unbeatable (presuming you mean by this that the game can't beat you) with any combo (especially with the revised action cards. Those make it much easier for the solo gamer). I randomize heroes and terrain placement but still need 3 or more dire enemies to have a decent chance of losing.
 
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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Nikoms wrote:
The Barbarian is huge against the Demon, due to his ability to sacrifice HP more than once.

If he has any HP left. Usually, after defending and pushing himself, plus healing so slowly, he hasn't had enough HP left to be worth anything in my games. Am I doing something wrong?

metaridley18 wrote:
After you've played a few times, easy or medium level should be unbeatable

Is that a complaint or a comment? I heard the game used to be too hard, but now it seems like it has been made easier, and people are finding lots of combos that let them trash the game. My friend played for the first time yesterday on regular difficulty, and complained that it was too easy. Do you think the starting hoard should be bigger? Abilities should be tweaked, or is it fine just like it is; after a game or two, you just need to play with 3 dire enemies?
 
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Jordan S.
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Just a comment. I like it hard, but there needs to be 4 difficulties to let people whose like it easier play. Play with 4 dire enemies, randomize your heroes, and randomize the terrain rather than carefully crafting it and it will be much harder. Increasing the hoard size is also an option but I haven't found it necessary yet.
 
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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I have never played a game where we have chosen the regions' arrangement, and we still win a lot. When the deluxe PnP is released, I plan to give every player 2 random hero cards and let them choose, so semi-random (the same system works great for faction cards in TEK). It should keep things a little bit harder since you can no longer choose your combos so easily.

Do you think different characters and regions combo together more naturally than others, or is it a matter of finding the play style inherent in each unique combination?
 
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Jordan S.
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I don't know if there are any specific 'combos' (Except for Sorc-Ruins, that one is nice), and you really just have to play to the areas that get hit.

I think random is good, but I'm really hoping the extra dire enemies and epic foes add difficulty if you play with 4 dire enemies. If I need more difficulty I will add hordes cards until I get a 50% or smaller win rate.

I think the game is tough to wrap your brain around at first but fairly trivial once you know what you're doing. I know that I'll also try not quarterback when I play with a group, so that may make it harder.
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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Sorcerer + Ruins was the big one I experienced, but Warrior in the Plains also worked really well. Barbarian and Cleric is nice too.

I agree, the ability to see the obvious combinations of region powers and hero powers makes experienced players likely to quarterback. I've been fighting hard not to do that lately

If the newly unlocked content all makes it in, do you think having a random draw of 2 dire foes (and possibly an epic foe) for the same region makes it easier (no movement to defend) or harder (not enough HP, and the threat is not spread around the regions)?
 
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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metaridley18 wrote:
The Barbarian is tough. I'm not sure that his special ability limits him too much. I'd almost rather see him have 3 health but still be able to regen to full at the capital. The 2 health regen limit on the capital means that he spends a lot of time running back to heal, even if he doesn't use his power at all. I don't think the Barbarian is fun to play unless a you have a cleric buddy. I certainly would hate to draw the Barb in a 4 player game. I understand that if he could heal to full and had 4 health he would be too strong, but he seems very weak with the 2 hp limit.

I wanted to come back to this thread after playing a few more games. I've decided I really really don't like playing the Barbarian. I've started to groan whenever he comes up in a two or three player game (I assign my hero randomly).

The reason is, as you've mentioned, that his drawback hurts him even if you never use his special ability. If you tap him out for a big run, he comes back with the ability to defend against two horde cards or one dire foe. So, you have to be really strategic about when you spend yourself out, and even then, your health is still getting run down just from defense. If you defend, then you have no energy left for your big berzerker rage. You need to end almost every turn in the capitol city, and that just seems more civilized than barbaric. Even if you take him with the Cleric, that ties down the Cleric too much, as he cannot heal himself or other heroes, or even cover the map. He just has to run around following the Barbarian, and with the once-a-turn limitation in the newest version of the Cleric, it's still just staunching the bleed a little bit.

Here is my suggested fix: "You may spend 2 health for 2 extra actions every turn." This way, he gets the idea of spending extra, but it's not such a big power. He'll still heal up to full in the capitol, and since he has no other power or advantage, he seems balanced. In case there is any confusion on whether he can spend 2 health more than other heroes, we might need to word it slightly differently. "You may spend one extra health every turn for one extra action (in addition to the one every hero is allowed)."

OK, so the wording needs to be improved, but would this make the Barbarian more useful?
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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Anyone else have thoughts about the barbarian? I might need to start a new thread on this topic in the "Variants" forum, since we're off in house-rule territory now.

I got to test my variant barbarian this weekend, and he worked much better. He was useful, but not sick. He seemed in line with what the other heroes were able to do. He still had enough health to defend, and could heal without making the cleric into his valet.

The next day, I introduced the PnP to a new group of players, and didn't want to start them out with the house rule. Again, we got complaints about the barbarian never having enough health to make his power useful.
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Michael Coe
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hobbesvii wrote:
Anyone else have thoughts about the barbarian? I might need to start a new thread on this topic in the "Variants" forum, since we're off in house-rule territory now.

I got to test my variant barbarian this weekend, and he worked much better. He was useful, but not sick. He seemed in line with what the other heroes were able to do. He still had enough health to defend, and could heal without making the cleric into his valet.

The next day, I introduced the PnP to a new group of players, and didn't want to start them out with the house rule. Again, we got complaints about the barbarian never having enough health to make his power useful.


Interestingly enough, your variant was close to the Barbarian's ("Berserker" then) original ability. He has been developed a couple of times and is still a target for extra attention in our final play tests.
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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Awesome to hear. Perhaps a better wording of the ability is:
"Once per turn, you may spend an extra health to gain an extra action"

This should make it clear that it is more than other characters, and allow it to be used on the "turns" given by Group Action cards in the 2-3 player game.

I had an idea for a dire foe power that would prevent players from using health for actions for the rest of the round. The Barbarian's power would still work in this case (unless the serpent dire foe was unblocked in the same round...).
 
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Jordan S.
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hobbesvii wrote:
Awesome to hear. Perhaps a better wording of the ability is:
"Once per turn, you may spend an extra health to gain an extra action"

This should make it clear that it is more than other characters, and allow it to be used on the "turns" given by Group Action cards in the 2-3 player game.


I really like this method of the barbarian, and I hope that they'll come up with something similar for the final game. Extra HP is everything and limiting the healing just makes the barbarian unfun to play.

Limiting the available extra actions by capping the number of times you can sac health seems to balance it out nicely. I will try your variant next time I play with the barb!
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Wilson St.James
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We randomize the regions (sucks getting the desert to the east or the west!) but select our heroes. Tried the barbarian once, didn't like it, don't use him anymore.
As for the Sorcerer, yes, powerful.
I'm not at this place yet, but what if you just didn't make that hero an option? Take him out of the mix? Would that in and of itself make the game more challenging for you?
 
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Wilson St.James
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theclergy wrote:
We randomize the regions (sucks getting the desert to the east or the west!) but select our heroes. Tried the barbarian once, didn't like it, don't use him anymore.
As for the Sorcerer, yes, powerful.
I'm not at this place yet, but what if you just didn't make that hero an option? Take him out of the mix? Would that in and of itself make the game more challenging for you?

In hindsight. There should always be a magic user in a dungeon crawl laugh
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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theclergy wrote:
We randomize the regions (sucks getting the desert to the east or the west!) but select our heroes. Tried the barbarian once, didn't like it, don't use him anymore.
As for the Sorcerer, yes, powerful.
I'm not at this place yet, but what if you just didn't make that hero an option? Take him out of the mix? Would that in and of itself make the game more challenging for you?

I always randomize the regions. I let other players choose their heroes if they wish, and then choose randomly for myself. I think when the full version of the PnP arrives, I'll deal two random heroes to each player and let them choose. This is the same method I use for factions in TEK.

If the Barbarian stays as he is, I will either take him out of the mix as you suggest, get a friend to Photoshop my PnP with a house-ruled version, or give that Hero to the experienced "Quarterback" player to keep him or her from being able to do as much. I don't mind taking him out with all the heroes we will have in the final version, but having a hero that nobody plays is a waste of cardboard and ink. I already have this with a TEK faction, and I really want all the cards in my game to be a viable choice and fun experience for the players.
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Merudo
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What about the other roles, such as Ranger, Paladin, etc?

I found the ranger quite helpful to Succor the desert.
 
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