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Subject: Trading, A Better Offer, Burn and End of Turns? rss

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Aaron Millis
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After a few runs through the game we've run into a few arguments over bits we couldn't get clarification on in the game manual.

First - trading. It can happen at any time on anyones turn (p.17 original rulebook). Trading ends when one of the players leaves the sector. Can trading happen while one of the players is in the middle of a 'full burn'

Say blue player is one square away from red player. It is red players turn. Red player's goal is to end up at a planet 4 squares away. Redplayer initiates burn, moves into the sector with blue player, flips an appropriate card which ends up being 'keep on flying'. Red player would like to then hop the next 2/3/4, turning over nav cards, to handle this in one action. However, Blue player would like to trade for one of Red Players fuel (since Blue player is floating in space). Can this trade happen while Red player is mid full-burn? Page 7 doesn't seem to outline this condition or whether anything can happen in the middle of a full burn other than nav cards (and possibly cruiser/reaver events).


The next question is similar and related. Can disgruntled crew be made a better offer mid-burn? It's clear you can do it during your turn only, you have to be in the same space, but if you are in the middle of a full burn, can Red scoop them up off Blue and still complete the next 3 hops?

Also related - page 17 gives a few more details and states "While stopped in the same sector as a rival's firely, a player may pay the hiring cost of a disgruntled crew..." (emphasis mine) - I am assuming this means it can't be mid-full-burn.

And Finally - the v3 FAQ states: "Making a better offer doesn't use an action but may only be done on your turn". The argument here is when does a players turn technically end. According to page 17 of the rulebook, "The player whose turn it is holds the Dinosaur, then passes it
to the next player after taking their second Action." This implies to me that when the second action completes, the turn ends. Crew could not be made a better offer after at the end of the second action. So, in the Red/Blue example above, suppose Green player is at the 4th hop where Red will stop. Red's 2nd action ended when they reached that 4th stop. According to the rules, they should pass the dinosaur and their turn is over. This does not leave the opportunity for Red to hire any Green's disgruntled crew?

Pointers or rule/faq references we've missed that'd clarify would be appreciated.



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James Rhys
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You're right in that the rule on page 17 states you must be stopped. This is stated in both the Trading and the Better Offer paragraphs, so neither can be done mid burn, you must be stopped to either of them.

As for the end of the second action, it just says "after", not "as soon as your second action is complete" or similar phrasing, implying that you can do other things after the second action but before passing the dinosaur on, so Red could hire Green's crew away from them. Don't forget the rules also encourage you to pass it early to speed things up, the passing of the dinosaur is a very fluid thing in our games, to be honest...


 
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Tyveron
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The term "Full Stop" is very clearly used in a number of places, but in these two situations they simply say "stopped". You can assume that "stopped" means "Full Stop" if you like, but my gaming group goes the other direction. The base game is already lacking in Player Interactivity (Pirates & Bounty Hunters fixes this). We choose to interpret "stopped" as "located", so you can fly into another player's sector on your turn, initiate a Trade and/or Better Offer, then continue your Full Burn. Since both Better Offer and Trade are essentially "No Action" abilities, I feel that this choice helps make the 'Verse a bit more social. Your mileage may vary.

----------

http://flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/GF9/Firefly/Rule...

Page 17

"Parley with Rivals
There are two types of interactions
that can occur between players in the
same sector. Captains may Trade and
Hire Disgruntled Crew without using
an Action.
"

"Trading
When two or more players’ ships are
stopped in the same Sector
, players
may buy, sell and trade Crew, Fuel,
Parts, Cargo, Contraband, Ship
Upgrades and Gear to one another
without restriction. Players are free to
discuss and make these deals outside
of the normal turn order and other
players may take their normal turn
while bargains are struck. Dealing
with others players in this fashion
does not require using an Action. The
opportunity for Trading ends when
one of the players leaves the sector.
"

"A Better Offer - Hiring Disgruntled Crew
While stopped in the same Sector as
a rival’s Firefly
, a player may pay the
hiring cost of a Disgruntled Crew to
the bank. The Disgruntled Crew jumps
ship and joins your posse; add the
card to your Crew area and remove
the Disgruntled token. See page 15
for full rules on Disgruntled Crew."

----------

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/GF9/Firefly/...

Page 1

"Question: Can I hire Disgruntled Crew from
another player when it’s not my turn?

Answer: No. Making “A Better Offer” (pg. 17)
doesn’t use an Action, but may only be done on
your turn.
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Robert Stewart
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Rules are fairly clear - "stopped" means "actually stopped, not just flying past" - interpreting it the other way is like the ancient argument that movement is philosophically impossible - at any given moment you occupy a single position, so at that moment you're "stopped" in that position, so you are always stopped, so motion is impossible. QED

There's nothing wrong with a house rule that says you can throw crates at each other as you swoop past at (literally) meteoric speeds, but it would be a variant.
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Tyveron
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rmsgrey wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a house rule that says you can throw crates at each other as you swoop past at (literally) meteoric speeds, but it would be a variant.


The Nav Cards "Freighter Convoy" and "A Rogue Trader" both allow the exchange of objects followed by "Keep Flying."

The Firefly episode "Objects in Space" involved Serenity and Jubal Early's Interceptor sharing course and speed, then exchanging personnel while in motion.

With precedent established, my group chooses to take the road more travelled (socially speaking) and allow Trade/A Better Offer during a Fly Action.
 
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George Krubski
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As noted, that's not the rules. But - also as noted - folk should play the way that's the most fun form them. Enjoy!
 
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Tyveron
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gwek wrote:
As noted, that's not the rules. But - also as noted - folk should play the way that's the most fun form them. Enjoy!


You're right. My viewpoint is not clearly written in the rules. Neither is the opposing viewpoint. The rulebook is riddled with inconsistencies. That is why this thread exists in the first place.

Hopefully GF9 will clarify their intention on this in a future FAQ update.
 
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George Krubski
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It's already been clarified.

There actually aren't as many ambiguities as people seem to think - but you often need to go to a different part of the rules for clarity. Following the third FAQ, there's very little that hasn't been spelled out.
 
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Tyveron
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gwek wrote:
It's already been clarified.

There actually aren't as many ambiguities as people seem to think - but you often need to go to a different part of the rules for clarity. Following the third FAQ, there's very little that hasn't been spelled out.


I've read the 3.0 version of the FAQ. I even linked it above. I do not see a clarification of this issue there.

Please be so kind as to quote the solution for us.
 
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George Krubski
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You yourself have quoted the pertinent passages. I understand your assertion that "stopped" is not clearly defined, but it seems like you're intentionally avoiding the obvious and clear implication.

If the game designers' intention was to allow trading mid-move, there would be no need to specify "when stopped" but they could simply have said "whenever in the same sector" or something similar.

For example, consider the phrasing used for the Alliance Cruiser event:

"If, at any time, you are in the same Sector as the Alliance Cruiser, you must resolve the Alliance Contact Event."

Note the difference. The use of the word "stopped," although not explicitly defined, offers different conditions than the phrasing used for the Alliance Cruiser, which CAN trigger at any time during your movement.
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Charles C
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I agree with gwek's interpretation; I think it's clear that the intention is that "stopped" means not in the middle of a Fly action. I was all ready to point out that the Nav cards seem to imply that you have to stop to interact with things (the salvage op cards are either full stop and do a salvage op, or keep flying to bypass the opportunity), but then I noticed the two that Tyveron points out. In those cases, something similar to p2p trading is happening, and it's clearly mid-Fly action.

But I think that's probably more about game mechanics than a strong precedent to allow trading between ships where one is moving.

Full Stop is often a cost for something like a Salvage Op. You can collect the cargo/contraband on the Salvage Op card, and if you have Scrapper crew, bonus fuel or freight. That can be big bucks, so for reasons of balance, you have to stop your move. Otherwise it's just a "collect a bunch of money, just for drawing this card!". It costs you an action, unless you draw it at your destination. It also makes sense in the context of the theme; you have to spend time to stop, scrounge for the salvage, load it up, etc.

For the Rogue Trader or the Freighter Convoy, the opportunity is not nearly as good; you have to spend money to get a limited number of cargo/contraband (only going to net a few $100 each), and the fuel is way more expensive than at a supply planet, (which might be worthwhile if you're low on gas, and not planning to be buying supplies soon). But, overall, it's a marginal opportunity, probably not worth burning an action, so, you get to Keep Flying.

Plus, the other option on both those cards is already a Full Stop. The only other Nav cards that have no Keep Flying option available are Reaver Cutter and Alliance Cruiser (and Customs Inspection, but that's easily avoided by working a job for Harken). It seems like the designers want a well-prepared ship and crew to be able to keep flying except in the most dire of circumstances.
 
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richard spangle
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Speed of Plot (re: as long as it keeps the game running fast and fun). although I have no objections what so ever to people "house rule" of these rules, please remember that should you play elsewhere (convention, game shop, etc.), you may be forced to have to play by a more strict interpretation of the rules. please be prepared for that.

for my view on this, I believe you have to stop. hard to dock to ships (port to port) while at speed. you may be able to travel via suit between objects in motion, but for the clunky work of transferring cargo or fuel (pellets, rods, liquids, etc.). as for a Better Offer, I really cannot see you suiting up just to drift over to make a better offer, then suit up to head back. as a captain, I think I'd change direction suddenly while you're bribing my man.
 
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Aaron Millis
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Ok then. I do appreciate all of the answers and thought; I like Tyveron's interpretation and I think we are going to try it, but consider it a house rule.

To summarize in a faq sort of way:

Can trade between Fireflies occur while one Firefly is in the middle of its Fly action and passing through the sector?

No. 'stopped' in the first sentence of 'Trading' on Page 17 of the base rules should be interpreted as a 'Full Stop'. Trading may occur at any time, but may not occur with a ship that is in the middle of a full burn. This would likewise apply in instances where a ship's Mosey ability has been increased to '2'. Trading may occur before or after these actions on any player's turn.


Can 'A Better Offer' be made to disgruntled crew while one Firefly is in the middle of its Fly action and passing through the sector?

No. Similar to the above, 'While stopped' in the first sentence of the 'A Better Offer - Hiring Disgruntled Crew' on Page 17 of the base rules should be interpreted as a 'Full Stop'. Hiring of disgruntled crew from other players may only occur on the player's turn, while a ship is not in the middle of a Full Burn. This would likewise apply in instances where a ship's Mosey ability has been increased to '2'. Hiring may occur before or after these actions on the player's own turn.


When does a player's turn end?

Page 17 of the base rules, Pass the Dinosaur states "The player whose turn it is holds the Dinosaur, then passes it to the next player after taking their second Action." Additional non-action items may still occur after the second action (such as making A Better Offer - Hiring Disgruntled Crew, and sudden but inevitable betrayals by the Tyrannosaur) before the current player's turn ends and the Stegosaur is passed to the next player.



And Finally, The Tyveron Social Variant:

To increase social interaction, the risk to allowing crew to become disgruntled and trade between players, 'stopped' on page 17 of the rules for both Trading and Better Offer is interpreted as 'Within the same sector' and not 'Full Stopped'. This increases the likelihood of player to player trades occurring, gives the crew a more mercenary leaning, and encourage more interaction when players are not taking their turn.



Sound about right?

Edit 1 - Changed 'Move action' to 'Fly action' since it covers both Full Burns and Moseys (though only really applies when one of the upgrades allowing a Mosey of 2 to occur)
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George Krubski
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Sounds about right to me.

Now, let's talk about Trading and Hiring in the middle of Actions. Let's say two players are at the same location. Player A is working a Crime Job, Misbehaves, and realizes he doesn't have enough Fight for the current test. Can he trade with Fight-heavy Player 2 to get the right Crew for the gig?
 
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Robin Moss
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gwek wrote:
Sounds about right to me.

Now, let's talk about Trading and Hiring in the middle of Actions. Let's say two players are at the same location. Player A is working a Crime Job, Misbehaves, and realizes he doesn't have enough Fight for the current test. Can he trade with Fight-heavy Player 2 to get the right Crew for the gig?


Wouldn't matter anyway, would it? You can't change the crew and gear you're using mid-job, so even if you trade for more crew or gear you couldn't start using it mid-job.
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George Krubski
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I don't think that's strictly true.

I believe (but may be mistaken) that the rules say "Gear can't change hands." Doesn't say anything about bringing in NEW Gear.

I also don't think there's a specific statement that Crew can't change. Indeed, the rules don't actually allow you to select which Crew are Working the Job (if they're on your crew, they're Working the Job), so I don't know if there would be a prohibition about bringing aboard new Crew mid-Job, assuming circumstances lined up (eg, you have the space and a willing trading partner).
 
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Aaron Millis
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I am unable to find a reference to hiring while in the middle of Work action either. Nor a reference to anyone staying behind except for the circumstances where the crew is not allowed to work the job (Shepherd Book & Immoral jobs / recently medic'd crew+gear, FAQ3 page 5). There are statements that equipment on the ship during the job cannot be used/switched during a job, but it doesn't really delve into a situation where new crew show up amidst the job.

I suspect that the intention was for hiring-via-make-a-better-offer to not happen in the middle of an action, period (so maybe the question above could be clarified to not be specific to the Fly action - it might be more appropriate to ask "Can 'A Better Offer' be made to disgruntled crew while your Firefly is in the middle of an action?'). Thematically it mostly doesn't make sense for the captain to hire crew while doing a job . . .but then again, there was the episode that Jayne was hired.


Edit1: typo'd Jayne's name.
 
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Jody Lent
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This is a tough one.

I would rule "no hiring DURING an action" as it

A: Disrupts the flow of the game
B: Disgruntles other players--stealing my guy is one thing, but "cheating" to do so? Too many table arguments.


That said, I might very well FLIP my ruling if I had a table of EXPERIENCED players who all agreed beforehand that you could do so mid-action. I think the question is really one of experience: it'd overload new players and feel like "cheating" to them, but to seasoned captains, a quick "Hey, what do you think about X?" at the beginning of the game should suffice.
 
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Karl Gallagher
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Millisa wrote:
Thematically it mostly doesn't make sense for the captain to hire crew while doing a job . . .but then again, there was the episode that Jane was hired.


Sounds like it would be fun to make someone switch sides during a Showdown.
 
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