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Subject: "Stealing" not yet distributed cards? rss

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Frank Otte
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In the following thread, the author of the plot cards says, that plot cards are in play, as soon as they are drawn by the leader:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6568541#6568541

Please confirm, that the following is legal then:

In a 7-player-game, at the very start of the game, the leader draws two plot cards, namely "Take Responsibility" and another card X.

The leader puts both cards face up on the table and decides to deal the card "Take Responsibility" first.

Player A receives "Take Responsibility" from the leader and immediately steals the not yet distributed card X from the leader.

Legal?
 
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Clyde W
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I'd say illegal but the rules aren't terribly tight.
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Frank Otte
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Side note 1: If the above mentioned example would be legal, then player A's behavior would be even mandatory, because you MUST steal a card (if possible) with "Take Responsibility" and there is no other card available at this time.

Side note 2: Considering the example from the view of game mechanics, I tend to assume that it would be legal, because it makes it impossible for the leader in this situation, to just burn "Take Responsibility" by dealing it first. Allowing stealing not yet distributed cards means for the example, that it plays actually no role, if the leader deals first "Take Responsibility" to player A and then X to any player, or vice versa. Player A always ends with card X in his hands (even if the leader deals both cards to him).
 
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Scott
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Hermjard wrote:
In the following thread, the author of the plot cards says, that plot cards are in play, as soon as they are drawn by the leader:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6568541#6568541

Please confirm, that the following is legal then:

In a 7-player-game, at the very start of the game, the leader draws two plot cards, namely "Take Responsibility" and another card X.

The leader puts both cards face up on the table and decides to deal the card "Take Responsibility" first.

Player A receives "Take Responsibility" from the leader and immediately steals the not yet distributed card X from the leader.

Legal?


Frank, my friend, well done in trying to find a loophole. It seems to me that your argument rests upon that term "in play"--which Travis himself wrote in scare quotes which itself raises doubt as to its meaning--and not defining the words "from another player" on the TR card. Because of these I disagree with your argument and find that your desired play is illegal.

A priori I dismiss the concept of "'in play' as soon as drawn" as you try to interpret it. What does it mean for a Strong Leader card to be "in play" as soon as it is drawn when it can't be used until the approve team vote has been rejected or a new round/mission starts? How can a card be in play when it is drawn and it is face down and has not even been read?

Travis's use of "in play" must be taken in context and your use of just those two words is out of context.

In context that quote is answer to a post asking about about whether plot cards need to be read aloud when drawn and do they remain face up until used or are they only turned face up when a player wishes to use the one time effect.

Peads wrote:
The rules also state that "[Plot cards] must remain face up as soon as they're in play." Does this mean just when you play the card, or that you have to put your (unplayed) Plot card(s) face up on the table (maybe next to your character card to indicate it belongs to you).


Travis wrote:
Plot cards are "in play" as soon as they are drawn by the leader.


All this means is that as soon as a plot card is drawn it remains face up. It is not a special game play term that enables one to target a card for stealing. The only card that could possibly benefit from such a wrong interpretation is TR and there is no intent in the rules or the designer's posts that this be so.




These three points are statements of fact, the first two by the rules, the third by your scenario:
1) A player has to exercise the TR card immediately upon being given it.
2) The TR card says take a card from another player.
3) The X card has not yet been distributed to a player.



The argument from the rules themselves as written (English 1st edition, corrected printing):

"...the leader draws Plot cards ... and distributes the drawn Plot cards to the other players (not himself)". (Emphasis in original.)

Nothing there suggests that the leader has those cards in his possession: he is expressly forbade from doing so. His role is simply 'draw and distribute'. While the leader is clearly a player (hence, "other players") the rules don't allow players to distribute the plot cards in their possession yet the leader is explicitly required to distribute them.

This is easily reconciled by recognising the special role of the leader. A newly drawn plot card X belongs not to the leader-as-player (else he could not distribute it and would have to effect it) but to the Leader-as-arbiter-of-an-intermediate-game-state. This intermediate game state is the position of X once removed from the top of the deck (before which it is unarguably not in any player's possession) to X being distributed to a particular player other than the leader (in whose possession X is then unarguably in). The leader has several exclusive functions not permitted to the other players and distribution is just one of them. He no more owns X than he owns all two to five team cards prior to distributing those.

Therefore, not being yet in anyone's possession, TR cannot target X and TR is discarded without effect.



This post by Travis Re: Who gets the plot cards? makes it clear that plot cards are "drawn, revealed, distributed" which acts as a corollary to statement 3. There is no implication that any player has them in his possession prior to distribution, they are but revealed. A comparison with Travis's statement (written later in that awful, garbled plural speak) that "The leader can not keep any cards for themselves, they must give them away" shows that "keep" is not to be interpreted as "maintain possession of"; "keep" can only properly be understood as part of "can not keep" meaning "is not allowed to give to himself", a concept he reiterates in the same sentence. To attempt to interpret it otherwise is to introduce an entity not present in the rules as I have quoted above when it is nothing but a colloquial rephrasing of the same.


Thankfully, no one is suggesting that the leader does take the explicit action indicated of a plot card he has just drawn, presumably because this action is taken by the person to whom the card is given. Since he can't give X to himself he cannot and does not effect X.

The only sensible conclusion is that no plot card just drawn is in the leader's possession and until distributed to another player plot cards are not in any player's possession. Thus, again, undistributed plot cards cannot be stolen by TR.



What this means is that the leader in your example either gives the TR card first to any player, or, if he gives X first, this is the same as giving X to whoever gets TR. Perhaps doing so distracts the unwary player. This is quite different to your whoever gets TR necessarily gets X also scenario.
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Keith Tauman
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The Leader draws the plot cards and distributes them (all in one action). The plot cards are resolved in clockwise order. If a player has an option, and does not use their plot card, it may not be used during the rest of the phase.
 
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