Recommend
24 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

Birds of Prey: Air Combat in the Jet Age» Forums » Sessions

Subject: Hornet vs Typhoon, Re: Major D.R. "Ged" MIller rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Kris Miller
United States
Lincoln
Nebraska
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The SVACM club decided to try a scenario based on an article in "Combat Aircraft" magazine. USMC Major D.R. "Ged" Miller, a Hornet pilot cross trained with the RAF on Typhoons and gave his analysis. See: http://www.combataircraft.net/view_issue.asp?ID=5017.

Chris Hobbs
United States
Dublin
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
and I diced off for aircraft in the "1 vs. 1 scenario. He got the Typhoon Tranche 1 & 2 and a would fly the F/A-18C (late EPE). The Typhoon was loaded with two ASRAAM and two AMRAAM missiles. The Hornet was loaded with two AIM-9M Sidewinders and two AMRAAMs.

Note: I took photos at the end of each turn. The dice show what turn end the photo is from. The Typhoon has the blue tilt blocks. The Hornet has the red.

Turn 1:
Both aircraft started in neutral positions at altitude 75 (15,000 feet). The Typhoon started by pulling Gs to get into close with the Hornet.

The Typhoon will beat the Hornet at rate of turn, but the Hornet should have a smaller turn radius. As the Hornet pilot I wanted to bleed some speed to get to corner velocity for a tighter turn radius. My fatal mistake here was not to have afterburners on during the tight turn. I never recovered all my velocity for the rest of the scenario. I flew the Hornet pretty close to the region of marginal controllability, with a high AoA.

The end positions favored neither player. However, I scored one point for a "fix" on the the Typhoon (indicating my pilot's ability to concentrate on the target). Hornet: 1, Typhoon: 0.



Turn 2:
Both pilots put their jets in a 30 degree nose up attitude and continued the dance. The Typhoon was using its better ability to pull Gs. I pushed the Hornet into a tighter and slower turn. Neither pilot scored a "fix" or gained an advantage.



Turn 3:
Aircraft separation increased due to the need to regain some speed. No advantage gained, no scores for fixes.



Turn 4:
Both aircraft used their increased speed to pay for tight turns. The Typhoon pulled Gs to get a high rate of turn; the Hornet used its tighter turn radius and ability to fly with a high AoA to get back into the fight. Both aircraft's velocities were parallel and the aircraft were pointing, or "skidding in the turn, so that they were nose to nose. We thought we would get mutual gunshots, but the rate of closure was too great.

No scoring for advantage or fixes. Hornet: 1, Typhoon: 0.



Turn 5:
After the nose-to-nose pass, the Typhoon decided to use its greater acceleration to dive away, and a supermanuever called a "pitch transient" to keep the Hornet in its front "advantage arc".



Turn 6:
The Typhoon dives away to extend the range. The Hornet is too slow to quickly follow. The Hornet really wants to stay in close, so this is bad for it. Then the Typhoon begins a sharp turn back into the fight from a lower altitude and uses the pitch transient maneuver to point towards the Hornet before scoring a fix. The score was now tied, 1:1.



Turn 7:
The Hornet tries to turn to get out from in front of the Typhoon but it is too slow and the distance is too great to make much difference. The Typhoon launches both of its ASRAAMs. (The Hornet pilot laughs derisively.)

However, the Typhoon pilot scores 3 points per valid missile launch. Score: Hornet, 1; Typhoon, 7.



Turn 8:
The Hornet pilot pushes his craft to its limit, pulling 7 Gs in a descending turn towards the missiles. One missile lost sensor lock due to flares, the other missed due to the Hornets defensive maneuvers. The Hornet has lost some altitude, but picked up plenty of speed.



Final score has the Typhoon winning 7 to 1. It is out of short range missiles, but has not really lost any offensive capability.

Chris and I believe we confirmed what Major Miller said in the article: if the Hornet can get an early shot using its tighter turn radius, it will win the fight. Otherwise, time is on the Typhoon's side given its better engines and higher rate of turn.


26 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Markus
Switzerland
Zürich
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very, very nice report and pictures. Many thanks!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Raitt
United Kingdom
Boston
Lincolnshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice pictures.
Where do you get stats for the Typhoon?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Bryon
England
New Addington
Croydon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
polate wrote:
Nice pictures.
Where do you get stats for the Typhoon?


And the box mini

Jon
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hobbs
United States
Dublin
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jonbryon wrote:
polate wrote:
Nice pictures.
Where do you get stats for the Typhoon?


And the box mini

Jon

Both were part of the 2013 BoP Convention materials. Soon to be released, I believe, in Airbattle RAG 1.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hobbs
United States
Dublin
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
travellerne wrote:

Turn 5:
After the nose-to-nose pass, the Typhoon decided to use its greater acceleration to dive away, and a supermanuever called a "pitch transient" to keep the Hornet in its front "advantage arc".


Thanks for the game, Kris! Great to be able to get this played regularly.

In my mind Turn 5 is where the game really turned. We'd made two passes relatively neutrally and I guessed (correctly) that you'd set up for a third. Diving into the vertical allowed me to pick up some speed and separation and slice through the 60 degree arc to roll back up behind you turning in the 30 degree ring. Maneuvering in the vertical can make all the difference in this game, something I forget too often.

Fun game, look forward to our next SVACM meet in July. Anyone else in the SF Bay Area interested in joining us?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hobbs
United States
Dublin
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LancerDeuce wrote:
Both were part of the 2013 BoP Convention materials. Soon to be released, I believe, in Airbattle RAG 1.

Here's the description Phil Markgraf posted of the Airbattle RAG 1 back in February:
Quote:
Airbattle RAG - issue 1

The first issue of Airbattle RAG includes a BoP Second Edition & Ultramoderns preview, two articles on tactics and the five scenarios from the 2013 convention. There are fourteen ADCs, all in a preview-Second Edition format, including 7 existing ADCs from the convention and 4 new ADCs from Ultramoderns and 3 new ADCs from other eras (including 2 not at the convention). There are also 4 new missiles. Box-miniatures are also included!
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Where can I find out more info about Airbattle RAG? I did a web search, but apparently my web-fu is no longer useful.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hobbs
United States
Dublin
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
According to the AirBattle mailing list (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/airbattle/) it is supposed to be published on Ad Astra's site "Real Soon Now". On Friday, Phil Markgraf posted this:
Quote:
After several hiccups (in the printer and data export), we have solved the problems in the test-prints and the new BoP products are ready to head to the store! I'll let you know when the ordering pages are done at the store website! (Your local store will be able to order them at roughly the same time.)

Insert the Fry "Shut Up and Take My Money" graphic here...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks. I had forgotten all about the Airbattle YG. I am even a subscriber!

shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kris Miller
United States
Lincoln
Nebraska
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree that turn 5 changed the game. From the neutral position, with no clues, I had to guess what you might do and plot first. So I chose to be defensive and pitch in the +30 ring to begin a faster turn without giving up too much speed, and keeping a higher altitude. Unfortunately, I still had not recovered speed from turn 1, so this is when it became the Typhoon's game.

We will have to choose another interesting scenario next month.

LancerDeuce wrote:

Thanks for the game, Kris! Great to be able to get this played regularly.

In my mind Turn 5 is where the game really turned. We'd made two passes relatively neutrally and I guessed (correctly) that you'd set up for a third. Diving into the vertical allowed me to pick up some speed and separation and slice through the 60 degree arc to roll back up behind you turning in the 30 degree ring. Maneuvering in the vertical can make all the difference in this game, something I forget too often.

Fun game, look forward to our next SVACM meet in July. Anyone else in the SF Bay Area interested in joining us?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hobbs
United States
Dublin
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LancerDeuce wrote:
According to the AirBattle mailing list (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/airbattle/) it is supposed to be published on Ad Astra's site "Real Soon Now"...

Insert the Fry "Shut Up and Take My Money" graphic here...

Hey, look, they took my money...

http://store.genreconnections.com/airbattle-rag-issue-1/
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kris Miller
United States
Lincoln
Nebraska
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's one born every minute...

And then another...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Lund
Denmark
Århus
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Yes, Beware the Geek bringing gifts!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LancerDeuce wrote:
LancerDeuce wrote:
According to the AirBattle mailing list (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/airbattle/) it is supposed to be published on Ad Astra's site "Real Soon Now"...

Insert the Fry "Shut Up and Take My Money" graphic here...

Hey, look, they took my money...

http://store.genreconnections.com/airbattle-rag-issue-1/


Ooh! And Fighter Sweep is out too! (Late Bugs, D-Turkeys and lots of other stuff!)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keiron
United Kingdom
Sittingbourne
Kent
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dang, RAG looks sweet, but the shipping to the UK is more than the journal itself!

Will have to think on this one, and perhaps hope and pray that a UK distributor, or retailer picks it up ... oh, and Fighter Sweep too
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Lund
Denmark
Århus
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Yes, Beware the Geek bringing gifts!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kappa_ap wrote:
Dang, RAG looks sweet, but the shipping to the UK is more than the journal itself!

Will have to think on this one, and perhaps hope and pray that a UK distributor, or retailer picks it up ... oh, and Fighter Sweep too


I am writing Leisure Games in Finchley if they are getting some copies, as I will be coming by them in August
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ethan McKinney
United States
El Segundo
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Kappa_ap wrote:
Dang, RAG looks sweet, but the shipping to the UK is more than the journal itself!

Will have to think on this one, and perhaps hope and pray that a UK distributor, or retailer picks it up ... oh, and Fighter Sweep too


E-mail adastragames@gmail.com and ask about shipping. IIRC, the shipping calculator for the store is "dumb," but Ad Astra may be able to come up with cheaper options.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keiron
United Kingdom
Sittingbourne
Kent
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LeZerp wrote:

I am writing Leisure Games in Finchley if they are getting some copies, as I will be coming by them in August


I'll be intrigued to hear if they'll be getting any in stock. Do let us know what their reply is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Lund
Denmark
Århus
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Yes, Beware the Geek bringing gifts!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kappa_ap wrote:
LeZerp wrote:

I am writing Leisure Games in Finchley if they are getting some copies, as I will be coming by them in August


I'll be intrigued to hear if they'll be getting any in stock. Do let us know what their reply is.


Wilco!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Bryon
England
New Addington
Croydon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kappa_ap wrote:
LeZerp wrote:

I am writing Leisure Games in Finchley if they are getting some copies, as I will be coming by them in August


I'll be intrigued to hear if they'll be getting any in stock. Do let us know what their reply is.


Me too. It came to about $117 for the RAG and FS, plus any VAT and handling I'll get stuck with at the post office :-o

Jon
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Lund
Denmark
Århus
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Yes, Beware the Geek bringing gifts!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jonbryon wrote:
Kappa_ap wrote:
LeZerp wrote:

I am writing Leisure Games in Finchley if they are getting some copies, as I will be coming by them in August


I'll be intrigued to hear if they'll be getting any in stock. Do let us know what their reply is.


Me too. It came to about $117 for the RAG and FS, plus any VAT and handling I'll get stuck with at the post office :-o

Jon


I haven't heard from Leisure Games yet (Did not expect them to, give them some time to look at their options and compose an answer) - but if you would be interested in buying from them, let them know you're interested - the more declared customers, the more incentive to stock the items
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fall Jester
United States
flag msg tools
Great 1v1 session guys, and a reminder to order the RAG!
The pictures are great, but if you kept the positional data, a Ghostscript file or pdf is another great tool for tactics analysis.

I just played the Red Flag scenario (F-15C vs F-5E) and am planning on adding my session report in the next few days. It's good to see some love for this game on BGG.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morten Lund
Denmark
Århus
Denmark
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Yes, Beware the Geek bringing gifts!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi,
Got an answer from Leisure Games:

Quote:
Hello Morten,

Sorry it has taken so long to answer you. I don’t think we will be able to stock those two, as the none of the games distributors either in UK, Europe, or even the US stock them and we would not want to buy enough for a special order to be worthwhile.

Thank you for asking anyway, sorry we could not help on this occasion.

Regards,

Mike Berry
Leisure Games


So, unfortunately not much help there.



LeZerp wrote:
Kappa_ap wrote:
LeZerp wrote:

I am writing Leisure Games in Finchley if they are getting some copies, as I will be coming by them in August


I'll be intrigued to hear if they'll be getting any in stock. Do let us know what their reply is.


Wilco!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.