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Subject: Old Wargames/Kriegsspiels rss

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Pelle Nilsson
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Stumbled upon this old book today when googling old games:
Hand-bibliothek för sällskapsnöjen, eller, Systematiskt ordnade spel, lekar och konster (printed 1839). The book has all sorts of games, from some early forms of bowling, chess, billiard, to simple cardgames, dice games, something that looks like Backgammon, dexterity games, and... drumroll ... two wargames:

On pages 586-612 is a translation/version of Hellwigs Kriegsspiel under the name Helwigs Krigsspel (yes, with just one L). It seems much shorter than the German version. Still looks quite complex, and judging from other games in the book it is probably supposed to be a complete description of the (or a) game, but maybe not including all the rules of the original? There are no pictures of board or pieces, but some quite detailed descriptions how to construct them. Maybe there were more content on some plates not scanned by Google?

On pages 623- 636(?) is a version of Kriegsspiel (or rather the 1830 Swedish translation it seems). No idea how it compares to the German original. There are some drawings of how the different units should look, a few simple table, descriptions of some "kvadrater" ("squares") of different colors that I guess are the dice, but I have not read everything yet, just skimmed the rules.

There is also a sort of big war chess called Kungsspelet (translates to Kings Game or King's Game) (also with the alternative title Krigsspelet, meaning The Wargame (or Das Kriegsspiel, if you prefer)). It just looks like some mega-variant of chess with a military theme pasted on. I think there is some old British(?) game called King's Game, but I can't find that in the bgg database and don't know if this is a translation.

Belagerungs-Spiel is also included (as Belägringsspelet, pages 645-646) although it doesn't look much like a wargame at all despite the title (that translates to The Siege Game).

I thought it was an interesting find anyway. It looks like THE book I would have wanted for Christmas that year. Although the section about chess is far too long for my taste. Or maybe pre-internet, pre-phones, pre-everything even chess would have been fun though.
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Christian Sperling
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Highly interesting! Awesome find!

pelni wrote:

On pages 586-612 is a translation/version of Hellwigs Kriegsspiel under the name Helwigs Krigsspel (yes, with just one L). It seems much shorter than the German version. Still looks quite complex, and judging from other games in the book it is probably supposed to be a complete description of the (or a) game, but maybe not including all the rules of the original? There are no pictures of board or pieces, but some quite detailed descriptions how to construct them. Maybe there were more content on some plates not scanned by Google?

This is especially interesting. However, it's highly unlikely that a game as complex as Hellwigs Kriegsspiel could be explained on just a few pages.

But I suspect that it's another game...
I can't read Swedish, can you look if the game is played on a board with
25 x 24 squares and can you compare this list of pieces with the pieces used in the game:

Infantry and Cavalry
1 Field Marshal
2 Generals
2 Colonels
2 Captains
2 Officers or Lieutenants of the Cavalry
2 Officers or Lieutenants of the Infantry
6 Cavalrymen or common Knights
8 Infantrymen or common Soldiers

Artillery
1 Officer or Artillery-Lieutenant
6 Artillerymen or Fire Mortars
4 Cannons
2 Howitzers or Mortars

Machines
4 Bridge Wagons with 16 Bridges or Pontoons
16 Tokens for Breast-Works
5 Tokens for indicating Fires
5 Tokens for abruption of Buildings
16 Win Tokens

...
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chris schott
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
The scanning of the original material is surprisingly bad with distortion and unintentional cropping. Can OCR even deal with this?
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Christian Sperling
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
spacerx wrote:
The scanning of the original material is surprisingly bad with distortion and unintentional cropping. Can OCR even deal with this?

For the most part, but compared to other old book scans this one seems to be pretty good.
However, it's annoying that very often the illustrations and/or maps in those old books aren't scanned or not scanned properly, which can heavily reduce the usefulness, especially in consideration of rulebooks or game manuals. :-(
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Pelle Nilsson
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
konsum24 wrote:

But I suspect that it's another game...
I can't read Swedish, can you look if the game is played on a board with
25 x 24 squares and can you compare this list of pieces with the pieces used in the game:

Infantry and Cavalry
1 Field Marshal
2 Generals
2 Colonels
2 Captains
2 Officers or Lieutenants of the Cavalry
2 Officers or Lieutenants of the Infantry
6 Cavalrymen or common Knights
8 Infantrymen or common Soldiers

Artillery
1 Officer or Artillery-Lieutenant
6 Artillerymen or Fire Mortars
4 Cannons
2 Howitzers or Mortars

Machines
4 Bridge Wagons with 16 Bridges or Pontoons
16 Tokens for Breast-Works
5 Tokens for indicating Fires
5 Tokens for abruption of Buildings
16 Win Tokens

...


Yes, that is what the list of components translates to, and the map is 25x24.
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Christian Sperling
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
pelni wrote:

Yes, that is what the list of components translates to, and the map is 25x24.

I see!
The game is from Johann Baptist Allgaier, called
Das neue Kriegsspiel (1796).

However, the main inspiration for this game was Hellwigs Kriegsspiel.
It wants to be a more simpler and more playable version.
Some time ago I've recreated the board based on the original illustration:


The game should use 4 different terrain elements:
Red for mountains, impassable for units and it blocks cannon fire.
Green for marshes also impassable for units but doesn't block fire.
Blue for water and
White/Black for open terrain.
The other squares are buildings (towns/villages) and 2 fortresses.
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Pelle Nilsson
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Yes, that fits perfectly the way the map and terrain are described in the Swedish book. Thanks for correcting! I found that a nearby public library has that book. Will try to go there some day and have a look if there are illustrations missing on Google Books that are worth trying to get photos of (if they let me).

You don't happen to also know something about an early wargame by a Bülow? There is a Swedish book from 1826 that is supposedly based on that game ("Krigs-spelet, grundadt på Bülows nyare krigs-systems esprit"). I'm thinking of ordering scans of that book from the library. Can't find any information about it on Google.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Kriegsspiel is a more realistic version of a double blind wargame that fits into this period. This version seems to work along a more chess like mechanic rather than a tabletop mini .
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Calpurnius wrote:
Kriegsspiel is a more realistic version of a double blind wargame that fits into this period. This version seems to work along a more chess like mechanic rather than a tabletop mini .


Yes, that is the other wargame in the book. It uses a large 1:2000 scale terrain map for the players and a smaller 1:50000 scale map for the generalbefälhafvaren (umpire?).

Units are shaped blocks of lead with red or blue symbols on them for different types of units on each side. Lots of unit types, including special blocks for light infantry in skirmish formation that can be placed in front of larger units. Some smaller markers are used for sentries and patrols. Losses are tracked in 1/4th of units. A game master is keeping track of things and informing players of what is happening.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
pelni wrote:
Yes, that fits perfectly the way the map and terrain are described in the Swedish book. Thanks for correcting! I found that a nearby public library has that book. Will try to go there some day and have a look if there are illustrations missing on Google Books that are worth trying to get photos of (if they let me).

To get the illustrations would be awesome...also for the other games mentioned in the book...

pelni wrote:

You don't happen to also know something about an early wargame by a Bülow? There is a Swedish book from 1826 that is supposedly based on that game ("Krigs-spelet, grundadt på Bülows nyare krigs-systems esprit"). I'm thinking of ordering scans of that book from the library. Can't find any information about it on Google.

The name Bülow rings a bell... Yes, I had read about a quite famous german military theoretician and author, Adam Heinrich Dietrich von Bülow, but never heard of a game from him...I'll do some research...

Calpurnius wrote:
Kriegsspiel is a more realistic version of a double blind wargame that fits into this period. This version seems to work along a more chess like mechanic rather than a tabletop mini .

Those WarChess games must be viewed as childrens of their time.
They are from a time where warfare was seen as a deterministic process, where only the strategic and tactical skill of commanders decided battles. Random elements played a minor part and weren't seen as this important.
It required pioneers or visionaries like Johann Ferdinand Opiz or Reiswitz to overcome this doctrine.

Nonetheless, those "abstract wargames" were of importance for the military.
The game Hellwigs Kriegsspiel for example, was used to educate and train cadets in military, strategic and tactical thinking and to teach fundamental military terms.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
pelni wrote:
"Krigs-spelet, grundadt på Bülows nyare krigs-systems esprit"

It could be that the game isn't from Bülow himself, but based on his doctrines.

Two words stand out krigs-system and esprit.

Now, Bülow wrote a book, I think it was in 1799, called
Geist des neuen Kriegssystems, which translates to something like:
Esprit of the new war-system.

The book is about principles and theories of base and lines of operations.
An example from the book:



A is the base of operations, B is the objective. Now an attacker, D, should try to occupy line AB to cut off C from support.
To prevent this, 2 units, E and N, should protect the line AB. N fights off a possible attacker from the left, M.
It should be regarded that D has probably depots at points F-I, K is too close to unit C.
There are many more and detailed thoughts in the book, but the game could be based on these concepts...
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Pelle Nilsson
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
konsum24 wrote:
pelni wrote:
"Krigs-spelet, grundadt på Bülows nyare krigs-systems esprit"

It could be that the game isn't from Bülow himself, but based on his doctrines.

Two words stand out krigs-system and esprit.

Now, Bülow wrote a book, I think it was in 1799, called
Geist des neuen Kriegssystems, which translates to something like:
Esprit of the new war-system.

The book is about principles and theories of base and lines of operations.
An example from the book:



A is the base of operations, B is the objective. Now an attacker, D, should try to occupy line AB to cut off C from support.
To prevent this, 2 units, E and N, should protect the line AB. N fights off a possible attacker from the left, M.
It should be regarded that D has probably depots at points F-I, K is too close to unit C.
There are many more and detailed thoughts in the book, but the game could be based on these concepts...


Sounds like a reasonable guess. I will hopefully know soon. I agree that the title can be read as if the game is based on a system, not a game. "Grundadt på" meant "based on". Can't find anything about that book other than the title. Might not even be a wargame, although I'm not sure what else "krigs-spelet" could have meant even in the 1820's.
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Christian Sperling
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Just as a side note. The example from Bülows book reminds me of a tactic used in WW2.
See this video:



In this video the defenders primarly try to attack the "spearhead", this would be unit C in the example above.
But according to Bülow C should be ignored.
The AB line of operation should have priority to cut off the "spearhead".
Somehow I'm reminded of the boardgame Go here...

pelni wrote:

Sounds like a reasonable guess. I will hopefully know soon. I agree that the title can be read as if the game is based on a system, not a game. "Grundadt på" meant "based on". Can't find anything about that book other than the title. Might not even be a wargame, although I'm not sure what else "krigs-spelet" could have meant even in the 1820's.

I know that the Wehrmacht in WW2 used Kriegsspiele (wargames) to analyze battles, but the term, Kriegsspiele, was also used to name tactical problems or exercises, with a tactical situation depicted and the questionee had to find the best or correct answer.

An example would be this book:


It's called the Kriegsspiel-Fibel (Wargame Manual). But I'm not sure if the book contains wargame rules as we perceive them today.

Before I forget, you should also look out for military magazines from the Academy of Military Science in Stockholm, called (hope I have this right): Svenska Krigsmanna Sällskapets Handlingar. Published around 1800, with 12 books published per year. The magazines contained war related essays, maps, plans etc.
Could be of interest...
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
konsum24 wrote:
Kriegsspiele, was also used to name tactical problems or exercises, with a tactical situation depicted and the questionee had to find the best or correct answer.


Never heard of the word used like that. It's possible I guess.

Quote:
Before I forget, you should also look out for military magazines from the Academy of Military Science in Stockholm, called (hope I have this right): Svenska Krigsmanna Sällskapets Handlingar. Published around 1800, with 12 books published per year. The magazines contained war related essays, maps, plans etc.
Could be of interest...


Never heard of that, but looks like fun. Available in quite many Swedish libraries actually. Some books (collections for one year of the magazine I think?) can be scanned for a fee by the National Library, like the 200 pages for year 1798 for 724 kr (appr $108 USD). A bit more than I want to just throw at that without even knowing what is in there.

Have sent emails to two different libraries today about visiting them to look at some old wargames. Will see how that works out before I go hunting for even more old documents.

EDIT: Oh, the 1799 collection of the Krigsmanna Sällskapets collection is in the library I hope to visit in a few days, so I might be able to have a quick look at that. That's a very old book though, not sure I dare go near it (or if they let me).
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Very interesting stuff you guys come up with. I really like to know more about early wargames. Any websites, articles or wiki to recommend?
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
pelni wrote:

Never heard of that, but looks like fun. Available in quite many Swedish libraries actually. Some books (collections for one year of the magazine I think?) can be scanned for a fee by the National Library, like the 200 pages for year 1798 for 724 kr (appr $108 USD). A bit more than I want to just throw at that without even knowing what is in there.

Indeed, around 100 bucks for not knowing what exactly you get is hefty.

pelni wrote:

Have sent emails to two different libraries today about visiting them to look at some old wargames. Will see how that works out before I go hunting for even more old documents.

EDIT: Oh, the 1799 collection of the Krigsmanna Sällskapets collection is in the library I hope to visit in a few days, so I might be able to have a quick look at that. That's a very old book though, not sure I dare go near it (or if they let me).

I really hope you get a chance to look at those old documents.
Fingers crossed!


eker wrote:
Very interesting stuff you guys come up with. I really like to know more about early wargames. Any websites, articles or wiki to recommend?

I haven't found good wargame history sites or documents in English.
Most sides only mention:
Das Königsspiel (The King's Game) from Christopher Weikmann, 1644.
Hellwigs Kriegsspiel, 1780.
Sometimes Venturinis Kriegsspiel is mentioned, 1798.
But not many informations on those games.
And Reisswitz Kriegsspiel and Little Wars from Wells, of course.

Many old classics are unknown or left out, like the already mentioned
Kriegsspiel from Allgair and the also very important Das Kriegsspiel, oder das Schachspiel im Großen from Franz Dominik Champblanc:
A special feature of this game was, that the players had to build the board with flat wooden cubes, maybe similar to Heroscape :-) and even though the game title implies that it's build on chess, the units can move freely on the board without the regulations or pattern-like movement of chess pieces.

The best book I'm aware of is War Games and Their History from Christopher George Lewin, it seems to be well researched but again many important games are also not mentioned here (Champlanc's Kriegsspiel, etc.).

But the most important game imo, which isn't mentioned in any books or documents is Opiz Kriegsspiel, printed in 1806, invented in 1760.
I've recreated the rulebook and played a waterloo scenario, based on Dunnigans Napoleon on Waterloo, with them. This was a bear of a job, but very interesting nonetheless. :-)
See here:Opiz meets Dunnigan: The Battle of Waterloo
It should give a good insight into the game and its mechanics. The game feels surprisingly "modern"...
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
The book Fundamentals of Wargaming from 1966 is available as a free PDF and will give about as much info on the oldest wargames as other books I have read. The time before 1824 is often just a short paragraph or two, mentioning some of the games Christian listed, but not much more than that. I doubt any author has played any of those games, or perhaps even saw them, they repeat some info they got from older sources (like Fundamentals of Wargaming).

For newer games, around late 19th century to now, there are more good sources, like several of the books from the History of Wargaming Project that goes into a lot more detail and often includes full rules.

There are hints about there being many different early chess-like wargames, similar to that Hellwig's or Opiz's games, but not much concrete info, or even good lists of what games there were, who played them, how popular they were etc. The somewhat newer Reiswitz Kriegsspiel is much more well-documented, including recent reprints, and still played, but really the war-chess games were more like our current grid-based wargames. I intend to play one someday, but not sure which one. Probably one that is available in Swedish or English (or Norwegian? ) because I don't read German very well.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
konsum24 wrote:
pelni wrote:
"Krigs-spelet, grundadt på Bülows nyare krigs-systems esprit"

It could be that the game isn't from Bülow himself, but based on his doctrines.

Two words stand out krigs-system and esprit.

Now, Bülow wrote a book, I think it was in 1799, called
Geist des neuen Kriegssystems, which translates to something like:
Esprit of the new war-system.

The book is about principles and theories of base and lines of operations.
An example from the book:



A is the base of operations, B is the objective. Now an attacker, D, should try to occupy line AB to cut off C from support.
To prevent this, 2 units, E and N, should protect the line AB. N fights off a possible attacker from the left, M.
It should be regarded that D has probably depots at points F-I, K is too close to unit C.
There are many more and detailed thoughts in the book, but the game could be based on these concepts...


Are point K-F "pickets" or "outposts" and not supply depots?
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
pelni wrote:
There are hints about there being many different early chess-like wargames, similar to that Hellwig's or Opiz's games, but not much concrete info, or even good lists of what games there were, who played them, how popular they were etc. The somewhat newer Reiswitz Kriegsspiel is much more well-documented, including recent reprints, and still played, but really the war-chess games were more like our current grid-based wargames. I intend to play one someday, but not sure which one. Probably one that is available in Swedish or English (or Norwegian? ) because I don't read German very well.

Opiz's game is too different from the WarChess games, but the game mentioned in the Swedish book, Allgairs Kriegsspiel, would be a good start if you want to try out a WarChess game from this time.

domster1 wrote:
konsum24 wrote:
pelni wrote:
"Krigs-spelet, grundadt på Bülows nyare krigs-systems esprit"

It could be that the game isn't from Bülow himself, but based on his doctrines.

Two words stand out krigs-system and esprit.

Now, Bülow wrote a book, I think it was in 1799, called
Geist des neuen Kriegssystems, which translates to something like:
Esprit of the new war-system.

The book is about principles and theories of base and lines of operations.
An example from the book:



A is the base of operations, B is the objective. Now an attacker, D, should try to occupy line AB to cut off C from support.
To prevent this, 2 units, E and N, should protect the line AB. N fights off a possible attacker from the left, M.
It should be regarded that D has probably depots at points F-I, K is too close to unit C.
There are many more and detailed thoughts in the book, but the game could be based on these concepts...


Are point K-F "pickets" or "outposts" and not supply depots?

Double-checked. K-I are assumed positions for magazines or depots to supply D.
But K and even maybe F could be too close to unit C and would be a valuable target for them.
But the author suggests that the line AB should be further reinforced with fortifications.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Pelle,
regarding this game:

pelni wrote:

There is also a sort of big war chess called Kungsspelet (translates to Kings Game or King's Game) (also with the alternative title Krigsspelet, meaning The Wargame (or Das Kriegsspiel, if you prefer)). It just looks like some mega-variant of chess with a military theme pasted on. I think there is some old British(?) game called King's Game, but I can't find that in the bgg database and don't know if this is a translation.


I have an idea. Can you look if the game isn't played on squares, but rather on lines, diagonals and circles, whereby some lines should be colored green and red.
And is a 2 player game played with 30 pieces, whereby 14 pieces move different?

Thanks


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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
konsum24 wrote:
Pelle,
regarding this game:

pelni wrote:

There is also a sort of big war chess called Kungsspelet (translates to Kings Game or King's Game) (also with the alternative title Krigsspelet, meaning The Wargame (or Das Kriegsspiel, if you prefer)). It just looks like some mega-variant of chess with a military theme pasted on. I think there is some old British(?) game called King's Game, but I can't find that in the bgg database and don't know if this is a translation.


I have an idea. Can you look if the game isn't played on squares, but rather on lines, diagonals and circles, whereby some lines should be colored green and red.
And is a 2 player game played with 30 pieces, whereby 14 pieces move different?


Yes! I don't get a very good picture of what the board looks like. It is described as a chess board, but with red and green lines, plus small and big squares, and some circles. The game can be played with up to 10 players, but the book only describes the rules for two players. There are indeed 30 pieces of 14 different types. Are you psychic, or do you read Swedish much better than what you pretend to?

At the end of that chapter is a mention that if you play on four you use two boards set up in parallel, but I'm not sure if you then play as two separate games or if pieces can move between the boards. Guess it scales up to 6, 8, 10 players also by adding more boards, but there is no mention of that.

So what game is it a translation of? The book claims it is "urgammalt" ("ancient" or just "very old" are the best translations I can think of, unless the word has changed its meaning).

EDIT: It looks like it could be something similar to King's Game described in Hilgers War Games - A History of War on Paper but I count to 28 pieces in the illustration in the book, plus the map is more star-shaped than just a square. But maybe it is a close relative to that game? I don't have time to re-read that chapter in the game at the moment.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
eker wrote:
Very interesting stuff you guys come up with. I really like to know more about early wargames. Any websites, articles or wiki to recommend?


I too find all this stuff fascinating. One book you may want to look up:
"War Games and Their History" by Christopher George Lewin.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
pelni wrote:
konsum24 wrote:
Pelle,
regarding this game:

pelni wrote:

There is also a sort of big war chess called Kungsspelet (translates to Kings Game or King's Game) (also with the alternative title Krigsspelet, meaning The Wargame (or Das Kriegsspiel, if you prefer)). It just looks like some mega-variant of chess with a military theme pasted on. I think there is some old British(?) game called King's Game, but I can't find that in the bgg database and don't know if this is a translation.


I have an idea. Can you look if the game isn't played on squares, but rather on lines, diagonals and circles, whereby some lines should be colored green and red.
And is a 2 player game played with 30 pieces, whereby 14 pieces move different?


Yes! I don't get a very good picture of what the board looks like. It is described as a chess board, but with red and green lines, plus small and big squares, and some circles. The game can be played with up to 10 players, but the book only describes the rules for two players. There are indeed 30 pieces of 14 different types. Are you psychic, or do you read Swedish much better than what you pretend to?

At the end of that chapter is a mention that if you play on four you use two boards set up in parallel, but I'm not sure if you then play as two separate games or if pieces can move between the boards. Guess it scales up to 6, 8, 10 players also by adding more boards, but there is no mention of that.

So what game is it a translation of? The book claims it is "urgammalt" ("ancient" or just "very old" are the best translations I can think of, unless the word has changed its meaning).

EDIT: It looks like it could be something similar to King's Game described in Hilgers War Games - A History of War on Paper but I count to 28 pieces in the illustration in the book, plus the map is more star-shaped than just a square. But maybe it is a close relative to that game? I don't have time to re-read that chapter in the game at the moment.

Awesome!!!

Then it is, most probably, indeed a translation of the Königs-Spiel (King's Game) from Christoph Weickhmann, 1644!!!


The cover and frontpage.


The pieces


Gameboards.
Left, one half of a 4 player board and
Right, one half of a 6 player board

I think it is also the game described in Hilgers War Games - A History of War on Paper. The book sounds highly interesting btw!

Regarding the pieces.
On this page,

it reads, that for a 2 player game 30 pieces are used for each side, with 14 pieces moving in a "special way".

I wish I could read Swedish. :-) It would be great to have a more "modern" translation.
The original is written in a very old german "style" and hard or cumbersome to read.

Again, an awesome find!
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Pelle Nilsson
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
Awesome! The drawing of the figures is in Hilger's book, as are drawings of two boards. I still count to only 28 figures in the drawing, not 30 though. BTW that book is a bit confusing. I think it is a collection of separate articles, plus the translation from German to English might make it worse. Not sure the translation is bad or if it is just that very academic German comes out weird when written in English, or maybe it is just as difficult to read the German original.

I'm just home from a visit to the library. I'll hijack this thread in a moment to post a few photos and a short review of the wargame rulebook I looked at there. It was only from 1884, so quite new in this context.
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Re: Found two wargames in a Swedish book from 1839
andre_sand wrote:
eker wrote:
Very interesting stuff you guys come up with. I really like to know more about early wargames. Any websites, articles or wiki to recommend?


I too find all this stuff fascinating. One book you may want to look up:
"War Games and Their History" by Christopher George Lewin.


Thanks for reminding me! I even posted in the thread you started last year about that book that I was going to buy it, but then I forgot to.

I also saw this book that looks a bit interesting judging from Amazon reviews:
Playing at the World
by Jon Peterson
. It's about games that inspired Dungeons & Dragons, but it looks like it goes quite deep. There are about 100 pages in the chapter about History of Wargames, starting with a section about games before 1780. Anyway I will probably enjoy the parts about fantasy games as well.
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