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Subject: The Last Rule you Learned rss

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S K
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I've now played 7 games of NT, and I love it! Although I feel I (may) know all the rules now, I thought the following question could help bring out some subtle rules (that I may have missed...)

For players who feel that they know the rules well: what is the last rule you learned you were doing wrong, or missing altogether, in Napoleon's Triumph?
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David "Brother" Eicher
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Artillery can't attack as a corps command.
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Chad DeShon
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For star points to count, your must be able to track a road route back to a MAIN road entry point, not just any entry point.
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S K
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Mine is that a Guard Attack affects the strength of 1 and 2 strength units for the purposes of the Initial Result. We were playing that the units were actually knocked down by 1 strength (eliminated in the case of 1 strength units) before the Initial Result - way too painful!

Brothereicher wrote:
Artillery can't attack as a corps command.

Artillery can't attack using a Corps Move command, but can using a Corps Detach command, I've learned. Very useful.
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David Lesouef
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"Losses are first applied as evenly as possible to leading infantry and cavalry (but not artillery) units."

It allows to benefit from the special ability of the defending artillery ("If the attack leading units are cavalry or infantry, subtract one [force] point for each defense leading artillery unit") without losing it.
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David "Brother" Eicher
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That's a concept I don't totally grasp. How do you use artillery on the defense?
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David Lesouef
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Brothereicher wrote:
That's a concept I don't totally grasp. How do you use artillery on the defense?

Artillery can "easily" defend in a narrow approach against less than 3 strenght infantry.
And if there is a penalty for cavalery in the defense approach, it's the same thing for cav.

Defense (1 art): strenght=1
Attack (one 2-strenght infantry): strenght=2 -1 (defending pieces are blocking the defense approach)=1
Defense win tied (defending pieces are blocking the defense approach).
Losses=1 for attacker (1 defending unit), and 0 for defender (1 attacking unit -1 art in defense =0).
Attacker can't pass with 2-strenght infantry.


An other exemple, place 1 artillery on approach between locals 102 and 103.
Allies can pass trought this approach only with a 3-strenght cavalery!
And if you place 1 2-strengt infantry with you art (for counter-attack), allies can't pass there!
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Kåre Dyvik
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The last rule I learned, I learned only last week. It concerns the optional rules for the Santon.
The French fixed battery can be placed in reserve, but may defend and attack across all three approaches, as if it was positioned in either approach. I thought that penalties for attacks into the Santon locale would apply as if the French fixed battery was positioned in the approach. This is not correct.

When the battery (and a supporting unit in the locale) is positioned in reserve, the standard penalty for infantry attacks does not apply. It does only apply if a defending unit is actually positioned in the approach (as the standard rules say). What is special about the Santon, is that the terrain penalty markers do apply, even if the defending units are in reserve.

And what is more, this rule is valid only as long as the fixed battery is alive.

Thus, should the Allies manage to knock out the fixed battery and occupy the Santon, the special rules do not apply if the French try to recapture the Santon.
(This last point I feel may be a slight oversight by Bowen - if I may be so bold. The rationale for the special Santon rules is that the hill is very small. Changing direction of the artillery would have taken less than the 2 hours required by the standard rules. But then it follows that the small size of the hill also means that there is hardly any distance from reserve to approach; the hill would be crowded with soldiers who could face any direction simultaneously. So terrain penalties should apply even if the defenders aren't positioned and organized for defense as they would have been if they had been in the approach, regardless of whether the fixed battery is there or not.)
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David "Brother" Eicher
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OK, let me get this straight.

1) This rule only works if the fixed battery is IN the Santon. If the fixed battery goes away, it's business as usual.

2) Any unit in the reserve can get the defensive terrain bonus, even when leading a defense.

3) Units do NOT receive the infantry defense bonus that comes automatically as a result of being IN the approach, unless they actually ARE in the approach.

Am I right?

Did I miss anything?
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Kåre Dyvik
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Brothereicher wrote:

1) This rule only works if the fixed battery is IN the Santon. If the fixed battery goes away, it's business as usual.

Correct.

Brothereicher wrote:

2) Any unit in the reserve can get the defensive terrain bonus, even when leading a defense.

I don't know exactly what you mean here, but: any defending unit in reserve gets the defensive terrain bonus, whether leading or not. Remember, normal rules apply:
- a 1-strength unit cannot lead from reserve (except the fixed battery)
- cavalry cannot lead defense when the defense approach is obstructed
- a unit can not be used as a defending unit if it was used as a defending unit against an attack through a different approach in the same turn

Brothereicher wrote:

3) Units do NOT receive the infantry defense bonus that comes automatically as a result of being IN the approach, unless they actually ARE in the approach.

Correct.

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Johan R
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The last rule I learned, today, is that a detached unit moved by corps command cannot move by road!!
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Joakim Pihlstrand-Trulp
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nappeto wrote:
When the battery (and a supporting unit in the locale) is positioned in reserve, the standard penalty for infantry attacks does not apply. It does only apply if a defending unit is actually positioned in the approach (as the standard rules say). What is special about the Santon, is that the terrain penalty markers do apply, even if the defending units are in reserve.


With reservation that you are an experienced player and I'm a newbie-nobody, I beg to differ.

"Approach penalties apply to attacks into the locale even when the defending pieces are in reserve."

Infantry attacking has a standard penalty of one strength if the defense approach is blocked. I can't see why that would be excluded here? The map contains hundreds of invisible, yet effective, infantry penalty symbols...
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Joakim Pihlstrand-Trulp
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Last rule I learned: Guards can make attacks into towns. Was under the impression guard attacks worked like cavalry in that sense, but it's rather the opposite.
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Kåre Dyvik
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trulpen wrote:
nappeto wrote:
When the battery (and a supporting unit in the locale) is positioned in reserve, the standard penalty for infantry attacks does not apply. It does only apply if a defending unit is actually positioned in the approach (as the standard rules say). What is special about the Santon, is that the terrain penalty markers do apply, even if the defending units are in reserve.


With reservation that you are an experienced player and I'm a newbie-nobody, I beg to differ.

"Approach penalties apply to attacks into the locale even when the defending pieces are in reserve."

Infantry attacking has a standard penalty of one strength if the defense approach is blocked. I can't see why that would be excluded here? The map contains hundreds of invisible, yet effective, infantry penalty symbols...

I see that you have found the thread discussing this, and arrived at the same conclusion as I have.
The term "Approach penalties" does not include the inherent penalty for infantry attacks agains units in the approach.

That is one advice you can take from me as an experienced player: It's all there in the rules, only it is sometimes easy to overlook important details.
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Joakim Pihlstrand-Trulp
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nappeto wrote:

I see that you have found the thread discussing this, and arrived at the same conclusion as I have.
The term "Approach penalties" does not include the inherent penalty for infantry attacks agains units in the approach.

Thank you for your answer!

Actually I still have not come to that conclusion when interpreting the rules literally. In section 4 approach penalties are not explicitly defined as only being the symbols printed on the map.

An infantry unit has an inherent penalty when it's attacking a blocked approach. Objectively speaking, that's an approach penalty. Or what else is it?

While I'm elaborating on this, I'd like to add that I don't have a problem with putting Simmons guiding interpretation into effect. I believe it's better for balance. The occupied Santon (1 fixed art + supporting inf) could otherwise in practise only be brought down with simultaneous attacks from all three directions. That easily gets slightly absurd.

Maybe then there's a need for clarification here? Perhaps in the Santon rules, pointing out the approach penalties as only being the actual symbols printed on the map.

Edit: One could of course argue that the clarification has already been made through forum and FAQ. Works for me.

nappeto wrote:
That is one advice you can take from me as an experienced player: It's all there in the rules, only it is sometimes easy to overlook important details.

I agree with that. The rules are very thorough and impressively good.

If there's a glitch here with the Santon rules, it's a small one and not much of a shadow. It's still a terrific game, of course, which I'm looking forward to delving further into.
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Kåre Dyvik
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trulpen wrote:

Actually I still have not come to that conclusion when interpreting the rules literally. In section 4 approach penalties are not explicitly defined as only being the symbols printed on the map.

An infantry unit has an inherent penalty when it's attacking a blocked approach. Objectively speaking, that's an approach penalty. Or what else is it?

No, the inherent penalty is not the same as an approach penalty. Let us do some nitpicking :

Chapter 4 in the rules describes penalties indicated by the penalty symbols which are printed next to an approach. This type of penalties simulate the effects of terrain, and are called "approach penalties" in the last paragraph of chapter 4 and in chapter 18, and "terrain penalty" in step 6 of attack example 3 in chapter 11 (page 7).

Chapter 11 part (6) explains how to compute the initial result:
If the attack leading units are infantry and the defending pieces are blocking the defense approach subtract one.
• If there is a penalty in the defense approach that matches the type of the attack leading units and the defending pieces are blocking the defense approach, subtract one.


So, the rules make a distinction between (printed) approach (or terrain) penalties and the penalty an infantry unit suffers when attacking a blocked approach (the latter simulates not terrain, but rather that the defending pieces are better organized and prepared for defense against infantry attacks).

There are other penalties in the game as well, e.g. the ones applied when guard units are committed for the first time, and the ones suffered by 1- and 2-strength units exposed to Guard Attacks.

Hope this puts your doubts to rest.

trulpen wrote:

If there's a glitch here with the Santon rules, it's a small one and not much of a shadow. It's still a terrific game, of course, which I'm looking forward to delving further into.


Indeed, you have much to look forward to
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