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Subject: The Collective OP Month Two: The Battle of Wolf 359 Fleet Discussion and Strategy rss

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Scott Allen
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Fellow commanders,

Let's begin a discussion of the next upcoming OP. I know that some people are still working on OP 1 for The Collective, but some of us will be playing OP 2 fairly soon.

I knew what to expect with OP 1, I have no idea with OP 2. My initial thought was to take a Borg Cube outfitted with a tractor beam and cutting bream, but I am right now leaning towards a Klingon or Dominion fleet with three or four ships.

Let's post builds here and discuss strategy. Here is my initial idea, but I definitely think that I will need to tweak this....

4th Division Battleship--36
Jean-Luc Picard--7
Cheat Death--6
Mr. Spock--6
Tactical Officer (Rom)--4
Antiproton Scan--4
Dorsal Weapons Array--3
Energy Dissipator--10
Photon Torpedoes (4th Division ones)--6
Strike Force Admiral's Orders--5

Total = 87

Comments on my build? Let the discussion begin!
 
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charles skrobis
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Trade the Tactical officer for Ilia, and collide with the BCT without losing actions, and maintain the dissipator every round. It's all just damage optimizing from there. (Though a lot of the counter argument relies on being aware that your ally may try to screw with you using assimilation tubules or Miles Obrein.)

Though the cutting beam gives me ideas now.
 
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Will Sanchez
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You should be thinking of how to mess up your "ally's" plans. Assimilation tubules sounds like a good start.
 
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charles skrobis
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delta_angelfire wrote:
You should be thinking of how to mess up your "ally's" plans. Assimilation tubules sounds like a good start.


I've never like Tubules. Too much cost for the 10 points invested, never seem to be used more than once if at all, and it always comes down to 1 turn being important for most things, so high skill and Miles Obrein always seems better.

The other big thing that makes it worse is that because of skill determining placement order, I can line up on the same side as my "ally", and position my self to screw with or avoid being screwed with as best as possible.

Besides, at this point all the stores I know will have all the Dominion war resources Banned, or at least just Flagship and the sideboard, so getting outside the box is definitely going to be interesting.
 
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David Griffin
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It's a shame that we can't have one truly cooperative event. You know where the players are actually .. You know ... Cooperating.
 
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I'm thinking of a two Breen ship build (I play faction pure) with EDs and the range 1-3 torpedoes. The damage output isn't amazing, but I think I can outlast my "partner".

My other idea is to run Khan in a Soong Cube, and gimp my opponent.
 
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Scott Allen
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charles_skrobis wrote:
Trade the Tactical officer for Ilia, and collide with the BCT without losing actions, and maintain the dissipator every round. It's all just damage optimizing from there. (Though a lot of the counter argument relies on being aware that your ally may try to screw with you using assimilation tubules or Miles Obrein.)

Though the cutting beam gives me ideas now.


Yeah, I had seen discussion of Ilia. The problem is that I don't have Ilia yet and don't know if I will be able to buy that pack before the next event. I certainly see Ilia as a great option though. At my last OP event in one of my matches my opponent was just really good at anticipating where I was going to move, so my Picard Cube was bumping his cube and not getting actions.

I also see the argument for screwing with your "ally." I almost put O'Brien on my ship, but I decided to just go for quality dice rolls every turn. I like that I will be able to reroll my dice, or turn them into hits.

Please share your ideas for cutting beam!
 
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Scott Allen
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charles_skrobis wrote:
delta_angelfire wrote:
You should be thinking of how to mess up your "ally's" plans. Assimilation tubules sounds like a good start.


I've never like Tubules. Too much cost for the 10 points invested, never seem to be used more than once if at all, and it always comes down to 1 turn being important for most things, so high skill and Miles Obrein always seems better.

The other big thing that makes it worse is that because of skill determining placement order, I can line up on the same side as my "ally", and position my self to screw with or avoid being screwed with as best as possible.

Besides, at this point all the stores I know will have all the Dominion war resources Banned, or at least just Flagship and the sideboard, so getting outside the box is definitely going to be interesting.


There are two local stores that I play STAW at and at one they have banned the Borg entirely (with the exception of the Soong Borg for some reason), and at the other store they have banned the use of resources other than the one you are getting at that event.

But, even with these bans I have still seen some pretty insane tricky builds. I don't think that banning things in the OP events is really stopping people from "working" the scenario.
 
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Scott Allen
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carbon_dragon wrote:
It's a shame that we can't have one truly cooperative event. You know where the players are actually .. You know ... Cooperating.


I agree, I wish we could actually cooperate in a scenario without any competition, but everyone wants that prize.

Personally, I know that I probably won't win each event and I just go to have fun and play STAW. It allows me to come with some pretty fun builds and just relax and play the game. There are some players at the stores I go to that are just so stressed when they are playing this game in a tournament situation and it doesn't look like any fun for them. I feel bad for them.
 
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Thomas Ryan
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just threw this together...

I might switch bio-neural with aux control room

Resource: Flagship Independent (Klingon) (10)

USS Voyager (30)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Flagship (0)
Cheat Death (5)
Hijack (4)
Adm. James T. Kirk (5)
Miles O'Brien (2)
Dmitri Valtane (3)
Ilia (4)
Energy Dissipator (11)
Bio-Neural Circuitry (5)
Antiproton Scan (5)
Ship SP: 80

Total Build SP: 90

Generated by STAW Builder
http://www.dracossoftware.com/STAWHome.html
 
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charles skrobis
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Well, cutting beam seems like a good idea, but it's a lot harder to get to work than it first appears simply from the lack of crew slots for the Borg.

The easiest way to make it hurt is for a Piccard free action, but that only averages 7.5 damage, like with a crit. Now I can take the Romulan Tactical officer and use target lock while re-enabling and do 8.75 also likely with a crit, but now I can't have Miles Obrein, and there's nothing to slow my opponent down, and people really seem to want that. Though if it's generic it can have 26 points left for another ship, though I'm really nervous about taking 6 dice turn after turn with no damage mitigation, when my opponent can out last me, and has options that can out damage it. Probably better off saving the points and rethinking it.

As for resource Banning. Honestly I can't blame that one and more support that. When I look at build posts, and the fleets I go up against, well over 90% all have flagship on them, with the rare few that go for something else such as fighters or the sideboard. I also know that people will always take command tokens over the new stuff like the chief engineer and such, so blocking out the older options means that things actually change up rather than showing up and having 9 flagship builds, or like when I showed up to play last, 13 out of 13 flagship builds. So variety is the aim, so stopping people from playing the same resource or 2 over and over tends to help. And this is before discussing how many of the resources do so much more for their cost then you could even approach with cards, or those small moments when the sideboard starts giving you 26 points extra to your build because of the faction penalty, and much more versatility in builds that couldn't exist in any other way.

Now, back to strategies, not sure the best balance between enduring, damage output, and then screwing with your ally, but it seems like a lot of focus. The biggest thing I kind of want is to spend less than 10 points to harass my ally, cause 1/9 of my build going towards something that doesn't help me survive, but maybe help out damage for a bit seems like it wants limits so that I can actually put out damage. The problem is that it always seems to come down to spending 10+ points or Miles Obrein for 2 or 3, and I'm not sure of a good way around this yet.
 
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So, the approaches seem to be:

1. Damage Damage Damage. Try to survive just long enough to put on so much damage your opponent can't possibly beat you, even if they outlast you.

2. Outlast. Basically, combo or Dissipator into as many rounds of damage as possible.

3. Disrupt. Screw your opponent over so they can't possibly do whatever their plan was.

4. Maneuver. At my LGS, everybody was concerned with taking a highly-maneuverable Dreadnaught-type build (or using the blind ship) to avoid disruptions and always be the furthest from the BCT.

Now, these are by no means exclusive. Everybody and their mother is going to be trying to do 4 in some aspect (especially given the blind ships); 2 beats 1 (really, it does), but 2 is really action-constrained, so really vulnerable to 3, whereas some versions of 1 are practically immune to 3; 2 and 3 compete heavily for points in a build, and 1 and 4 are contradictory strategies (generally); and finally, if you don't run 3, you're going to have to run something to fight it (or else have your corpse picked over).
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Chris Thomas
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Dante_Dark wrote:
Fellow commanders,

4th Division Battleship--36
Jean-Luc Picard--7
Cheat Death--6
Mr. Spock--6
Tactical Officer (Rom)--4
Antiproton Scan--4
Dorsal Weapons Array--3
Energy Dissipator--10
Photon Torpedoes (4th Division ones)--6
Strike Force Admiral's Orders--5

Total = 87

Comments on my build? Let the discussion begin!


I see some improvements you might consider.

I would suggest the cruiser for more maneuverability but that part is just preference.

Why not Dukat and save 2 points? In this lower captain skill is better, who cares who shoots first, you need to move first. Let me get to your scan/TL combo next.

Spock and Antiproton scan do not stack, one or the other. I suggest dropping Spock and get Boheeka instead. With Boheeka, battle station and target lock you should get all hits anyway and save on the tactical officer.

Dorsal weapons array against a stationary target? You should be able to maneuver around it enough turns not to bother. If your fairly new then it's a nice safety net.

Cheat death/ED: I think this will be a solid tactic, however remember ED keeps the target from attacking, thus your opponent will be safe as well. I will be looking into negating attacks instead.

Torpedoes: You understand your paying 6 points for 1 additional firepower, sacrificing a target lock and an action to re-enable, right?

Playing the dominion is nothing like playing the borg, you need both list building and maneuvering skills.
 
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Xander Fulton
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Cobra7fac wrote:
Cheat death/ED: I think this will be a solid tactic, however remember ED keeps the target from attacking, thus your opponent will be safe as well.


No, there was a slight revision to those rules for this OP.

If you play any card that cancels attacks, it's only the ship PLAYING the card that gets the benefit of it - everyone else is still fair game.
 
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Christopher Kendall
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XanderF wrote:
Cobra7fac wrote:
Cheat death/ED: I think this will be a solid tactic, however remember ED keeps the target from attacking, thus your opponent will be safe as well.


No, there was a slight revision to those rules for this OP.

If you play any card that cancels attacks, it's only the ship PLAYING the card that gets the benefit of it - everyone else is still fair game.


The ED doesn't cancel attacks, it denies the ship from ever attacking.
 
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Thomas Ryan
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GamerGuy1984 wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Cobra7fac wrote:
Cheat death/ED: I think this will be a solid tactic, however remember ED keeps the target from attacking, thus your opponent will be safe as well.


No, there was a slight revision to those rules for this OP.

If you play any card that cancels attacks, it's only the ship PLAYING the card that gets the benefit of it - everyone else is still fair game.


The ED doesn't cancel attacks, it denies the ship from ever attacking.


this needs to be clarified...
 
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AS a matter of fact, the scenario rules state: "Text-based abilities that affect the BCT only apply to the ship to which they are deployed."

Cancelling attacks is only the example given.

... not to say that some of that can't be clarified...
 
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Xander Fulton
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doomtwig wrote:
AS a matter of fact, the scenario rules state: "Text-based abilities that affect the BCT only apply to the ship to which they are deployed."

Cancelling attacks is only the example given.

... not to say that some of that can't be clarified...


I think the intent of the rule is pretty clear. If I hit the BCT with an ED, only the ship that fired the ED shot cannot be attacked.
 
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Scott Allen
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Cobra7fac wrote:
Dante_Dark wrote:
Fellow commanders,

4th Division Battleship--36
Jean-Luc Picard--7
Cheat Death--6
Mr. Spock--6
Tactical Officer (Rom)--4
Antiproton Scan--4
Dorsal Weapons Array--3
Energy Dissipator--10
Photon Torpedoes (4th Division ones)--6
Strike Force Admiral's Orders--5

Total = 87

Comments on my build? Let the discussion begin!


I see some improvements you might consider.

I would suggest the cruiser for more maneuverability but that part is just preference.

Why not Dukat and save 2 points? In this lower captain skill is better, who cares who shoots first, you need to move first. Let me get to your scan/TL combo next.

Spock and Antiproton scan do not stack, one or the other. I suggest dropping Spock and get Boheeka instead. With Boheeka, battle station and target lock you should get all hits anyway and save on the tactical officer.

Dorsal weapons array against a stationary target? You should be able to maneuver around it enough turns not to bother. If your fairly new then it's a nice safety net.

Cheat death/ED: I think this will be a solid tactic, however remember ED keeps the target from attacking, thus your opponent will be safe as well. I will be looking into negating attacks instead.

Torpedoes: You understand your paying 6 points for 1 additional firepower, sacrificing a target lock and an action to re-enable, right?

Playing the dominion is nothing like playing the borg, you need both list building and maneuvering skills.


Thanks for the tips. If I take out the torpedoes and Dorsal Weapons Array, what would I put on there instead. With both of those gone, I don't really have enough points for another ship and I don't think I could spend all of that on the blind booster ship. I just didn't know what else to do so I threw some secondary weapons on there.
 
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XanderF wrote:
doomtwig wrote:
AS a matter of fact, the scenario rules state: "Text-based abilities that affect the BCT only apply to the ship to which they are deployed."

Cancelling attacks is only the example given.

... not to say that some of that can't be clarified...


I think the intent of the rule is pretty clear. If I hit the BCT with an ED, only the ship that fired the ED shot cannot be attacked.


Sure. Obviously. Now, what happens when the BCT attacks? [Rhetorical]

Speculation aside, the question (unanswered, as yet) is up in the FAQ. Back to the point at hand, it is reasonable to say that clarification might be welcome given just that someone asked the question, but what I was really referring to is silly interactions arising from the admittedly-bad "...only apply to..." wording (for instance, does the Energy Dissipator actually apply the Energy Dampening Token to the ship that made the attack? -obviously a silly interpretation, but one that came up at my LGS until it was clarified for that player; guy thought it was like an ability-reflector rule).

Beyond all of this, and more to the OP, carefully understanding the interactions of the scenario, and how those will affect the meta, is a way to gain an edge. So yeah, these little things can maybe matter, and any strategy considerations should be tempered by rules considerations. Some folks REALLY want this to be a purely cooperative event, but I think it's a lot more neat to try to figure out how I can get my faction-pure Borg cube to run an ED and avoid having it SI'd away or chain-PSF'd... the combo of which is a nightmare I have now.
 
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David Griffin
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Dante_Dark wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
It's a shame that we can't have one truly cooperative event. You know where the players are actually .. You know ... Cooperating.


I agree, I wish we could actually cooperate in a scenario without any competition, but everyone wants that prize.

Personally, I know that I probably won't win each event and I just go to have fun and play STAW. It allows me to come with some pretty fun builds and just relax and play the game. There are some players at the stores I go to that are just so stressed when they are playing this game in a tournament situation and it doesn't look like any fun for them. I feel bad for them.


If you are just doing it for one event, you could award it as a MVP token as judged by all the players who would NOT be permitted to vote for themselves. Give each player a colored token (each unique). Give each player colored tokens for all the OTHER players. At the end of the match they put one token in a box or bag and see who wins. Then everyone is motivated to be valuable to the team. If they aren't, no-one will vote for them, or at least not many.
 
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So...I tested the scenario this evening with a buddy and lost terribly with my build. I'm really starting to wonder if going with just the one 90 point ship is the best option. He showed up with three ships and then we simulated the blind booster draw since I have four of the blind ships. So, in total he had 4 ships and I had two. Here was his build.

Vorcha Class
Jean-Luc Picard
Cyrano Jones

Keldon Class
Gul Danar
Miles O'Brien (which he didn't even waste an action to use)
Cloaking Device

Interceptor 5
Kira Nerys (the 3 point one)

Then he pulled the 3rd Wing Attack Ship and outfitted it with a Cardassian Captain, Seskal, and Photon Torpedoes.

I ended with 36 points from attacking the Borg and he ended with 62. Kira would give free target locks and then he would take battle stations. So he got to reroll all of his shots and then use battle stations to make sure he was hitting on all of his ships. He cloaked in turn one and started out slow, then transferred a Tribble onto the Keldon in turn two. Eventually there was a Tribble on the 3rd Wing too, but that ship was destroyed very quickly.

So, I am starting to think that maybe a build with more ships would be better. I'm not sure though.

On a side note, can the Energy Dissipator be fired 360 or only from a front arc?
 
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doomtwig wrote:
AS a matter of fact, the scenario rules state: "Text-based abilities that affect the BCT only apply to the ship to which they are deployed."

Cancelling attacks is only the example given.

... not to say that some of that can't be clarified...


Does it really need to specify every kind of "text-based ability"? The attack cancelling is just one such example. The ED would be another.
 
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yourmonkey06 wrote:
doomtwig wrote:
AS a matter of fact, the scenario rules state: "Text-based abilities that affect the BCT only apply to the ship to which they are deployed."

Cancelling attacks is only the example given.

... not to say that some of that can't be clarified...


Does it really need to specify every kind of "text-based ability"? The attack cancelling is just one such example. The ED would be another.


I'm not saying that it should say that "text-based abilities", rather that it does say that. And when I say, "Cancelling attacks is only the example given," I am not saying that "Cancelling attacks is the only example given" (though it is, of course, the only one given in the scenario rules if you read it), as though to say that it only applies to cancelling attacks. I was actually making the point to GamerGuy1984 (who thought that since the ED did not particularly cancel attacks, it was not affected by the BCT's rule) that he was in fact oversimplifying (based on the singular example) and drawing an incorrect distinction between effects (likely as a result of having not read the scenario carefully).

So, now that that's clarified, is there anything remaining you disagree with?
 
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For OP2 I am thinking of running something like this:

Cube - 46
Picard - 7
Boheeka - 3
Energy Dissipator - 11
Transwarp drive - 4
In'cha - 6
Dom/Ind Flagship - 10
total - 87

TWD/in'cha gets me in range 1 on my first turn, allowing me to kick off ED. FS grants free TL (re-rolls), Picard for BS, Boheeka for miss to hit conversion and to make sure that ED hits.

Thought about replacing Boheeka with Koss, just in case my opponent wants to mess with me but figured I could out pace them with TWD.

Thought about Transwarp Conduit (for 3pts, giving me 6 pts extra) instead of In'cha but that would deny me one attacking round. I can bounce to range 3 and with TWD I can get into range 1.

Blind booster ship can help score some hit points but is kinda fodder.

This build avoids messing with my opponent and goes for just doing damage. The key is not to have my opponent mess with me. Otherwise, with ED, the BCT should never attack my Cube unless I lose ED or am unable to enable it back with the ships action.

[EDIT]: ED only prevents the BCT from attacking the ship that fired the ED. The BCT can still all other available targets.
 
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