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Subject: Question: Superiority VS Flame Trap rss

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Always bring your towel.
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Flame Trap destroys a minion when it is played. Superiority prevents your minions there from being destroyed. If I'm reading the compiled extensive FAQs from the forums correctly, the Flame Trap would still destroy a minion being played, because the minions "when played" ability would take place first, then any other abilities that take place "when a minion is played" (and then other abilities would be able to affect the minion). So the minion would have to successfully play to the table before it would gain protection from Superiority.

Is this correct? Or is the FAQ wrong?
 
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David Lee
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Yes, you're right.
 
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Simon Tan
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gamesjunkie wrote:
Flame Trap destroys a minion when it is played. Superiority prevents your minions there from being destroyed. If I'm reading the compiled extensive FAQs from the forums correctly, the Flame Trap would still destroy a minion being played, because the minions "when played" ability would take place first, then any other abilities that take place "when a minion is played" (and then other abilities would be able to affect the minion). So the minion would have to successfully play to the table before it would gain protection from Superiority.

Is this correct? Or is the FAQ wrong?


Short answer: No, Flame Trap will not destroy the minion in question. No, the FAQ is not wrong, but more on that to follow...

Long answer:
The FAQ item in question has no relation to the interaction of Flame Trap and Superiority at all. From your definition, the minion would already have been successfully played (and protected by Superiority) by the time Flame Trap happens.

- Play a minion on the base in question.
- The minion's ability resolves.
- Check for other abilities that would resolve from playing the minion. (Flame Trap)
- Resolve those abilities.

(The Flame Trap card says this itself, in much fewer words.)

In this case, after the minion's ability is done, Flame Trap will follow next. However...

Smash Up Base Set Rulebook, page 9 wrote:

If cards conflict, the one that says you can't do something beats the one that says you can.


So what will happen is that the Flame Trap will try to destroy the minion, but Superiority steps in. Flame Trap and the minion would normally have been destroyed, but only the Flame Trap goes in this case.

***

Your question does warrant if the FAQ could be worded better. I kind of summarized the developer response, but I'll see what can be done...
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Jon Gameson
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From my reading of it, I would have to agree with Simon here, that the minion would not be destroyed.

From the order, the minions abilities would proc. first, then any "when the minion is played" abilities would proc.

Flame trap and the effect from Superiority would trigger at the same time (both from the minion being played onto the base).

Since can't be destroyed trumps destroy, and the active player (the one playing the minion) chooses the order of events when things trigger simultaneously, then Superiority would trigger, protecting the minion from Flame Trap whilst using the trap up.

I also don't think the FAQ is wrong, it's just not as relevant to this scenario as we'd like.
 
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Hmm. Disappointing to say the least. Here I was hoping I would have at least one tool to help defeat bears Appreciate the clarification though. I tell ya, I love AEG games, but I'll be damned if they don't notoriously have wonky card interactions

However, while I suppose the "cant versus can" scenario makes sense, I feel like a play trigger should happen before an ongoing effect. Just seems to make more sense that way. Oh well. I guess Superiority (or just the Bears faction in general) is more absurdly OP than I thought.
 
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Simon Tan
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gamesjunkie wrote:
Hmm. Disappointing to say the least. Here I was hoping I would have at least one tool to help defeat bears Appreciate the clarification though. I tell ya, I love AEG games, but I'll be damned if they don't notoriously have wonky card interactions

However, while I suppose the "cant versus can" scenario makes sense, I feel like a play trigger should happen before an ongoing effect. Just seems to make more sense that way. Oh well. I guess Superiority (or just the Bears faction in general) is more absurdly OP than I thought.


With regards to the OP issue, I would say one tactic that is usually forgotten is the abandon-ship-and-go-for-other-bases strategy. Granted, this does not help when you are down to the last few points, but early on you can force an opponent with the supposedly OP stuff to (over)commit and break the base on their own while others get their points elsewhere. You don't have to win every battle... just win the war.

With regards to how the individual interactions are dealt with, this is something that I hear AEG is dealing with, hopefully with streamlined ways to deal with the rules.
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J
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Since no one has said it yet I'll point it out. Flame trap specifically says it triggers "after a minion has bee played here." That's how you know the minion is already in play and getting the protection from superiority.

gamesjunkie wrote:

However, while I suppose the "cant versus can" scenario makes sense, I feel like a play trigger should happen before an ongoing effect. Just seems to make more sense that way. Oh well. I guess Superiority (or just the Bears faction in general) is more absurdly OP than I thought.


How OP do you think they are? I would think (and the power poll agrees that) Bears seem to be an average faction that trends good and in fact placed lower than both Plants and Steampunk from the same set.

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allstar64 wrote:
Since no one has said it yet I'll point it out. Flame trap specifically says it triggers "after a minion has bee played here." That's how you know the minion is already in play and getting the protection from superiority.

gamesjunkie wrote:

However, while I suppose the "cant versus can" scenario makes sense, I feel like a play trigger should happen before an ongoing effect. Just seems to make more sense that way. Oh well. I guess Superiority (or just the Bears faction in general) is more absurdly OP than I thought.


How OP do you think they are? I would think (and the power poll agrees that) Bears seem to be an average faction that trends good and in fact placed lower than both Plants and Steampunk from the same set.



OP enough that no matter what they have been paired with, they are undefeated when I've played against them. And while I can win games normally, I played with the bears today and lost miserably. So either my opponent has been impossibly lucky, or I'm one of the worst Smash Up players on the face of the planet.
 
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Simon Tan
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gamesjunkie wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
Since no one has said it yet I'll point it out. Flame trap specifically says it triggers "after a minion has bee played here." That's how you know the minion is already in play and getting the protection from superiority.

gamesjunkie wrote:

However, while I suppose the "cant versus can" scenario makes sense, I feel like a play trigger should happen before an ongoing effect. Just seems to make more sense that way. Oh well. I guess Superiority (or just the Bears faction in general) is more absurdly OP than I thought.


How OP do you think they are? I would think (and the power poll agrees that) Bears seem to be an average faction that trends good and in fact placed lower than both Plants and Steampunk from the same set.



OP enough that no matter what they have been paired with, they are undefeated when I've played against them. And while I can win games normally, I played with the bears today and lost miserably. So either my opponent has been impossibly lucky, or I'm one of the worst Smash Up players on the face of the planet.


No, that honor(?) probably belongs to me. With all the 2, 3, and even 4-player games I've played, I've only won a few 2-player games and one 4-player. I've also managed to get in situations where everyone but me would be tied for 1st place.
 
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gamesjunkie wrote:


OP enough that no matter what they have been paired with, they are undefeated when I've played against them. And while I can win games normally, I played with the bears today and lost miserably. So either my opponent has been impossibly lucky, or I'm one of the worst Smash Up players on the face of the planet.


Hehe more likely you are just experiencing the regular fluctuations of the Bears. Bears have a few great advantages and 2 giant weaknesses.

First of all their minions Average Power is very high since several of their minions have their power increased. They also have the ability to defend themselves with several of their abilities plus their "Moves" are usually not power restricted and with High Ground you can get some really nasty killing in.

Their First great weakness is the strict timing their cards have. Moving doesn't always cut it so often they'll want a way to destroy them too. 8 of the Bear's Cards move opponents while 5 kill on move. If they fail to get one of those 5 Kill on move cards they can find it difficult to slow down opponents.

The second great weakness is a little more iffy. Bears actually can find it difficult to add power to bases. Bear Calvary and Commission both force the opponent to move a minion away meaning you often find yourself adding 3~4 power but removing 2~4 power at a base. Polar Commandos are in a similar boat where if you add another minion to their base you first lose +2 power.

As such Bears can get messed up either way if things end up going wrong.
 
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Paul V
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TheOneEared wrote:
From my reading of it, I would have to agree with Simon here, that the minion would not be destroyed.

From the order, the minions abilities would proc. first, then any "when the minion is played" abilities would proc.

Flame trap and the effect from Superiority would trigger at the same time (both from the minion being played onto the base).

Since can't be destroyed trumps destroy, and the active player (the one playing the minion) chooses the order of events when things trigger simultaneously, then Superiority would trigger, protecting the minion from Flame Trap whilst using the trap up.

I also don't think the FAQ is wrong, it's just not as relevant to this scenario as we'd like.


Disagree slightly about the order, though in this case the conclusion is the same. I would say the following happen in the following order:

1. The minion is played. Superiority is in effect now (it is not a reactive card, it simply affects all cards at the base, and the minion is at the base)
2. Next, the minion's own ability triggers.
3. Next, other reactive cards trigger (Flame Trap)

This would be important if (as in the microbot case) you might otherwise be forced to destroy the minion you just played; the ongoing effect is taken into consideration before the minion's action.
 
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