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Subject: I have the Complete First Edition...now what? rss

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Driver 8
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I'm really undecided about what to do with the Kickstarter that's ending this week. I really like the idea of adding more decks and characters to the game. As I see it, my options are...

1)Continue to play with the cards I have and ignore any changes that have been made. No extra characters.

2)Get the expansion(s) that add new decks, and then...Here's where things get fuzzy. Would I then have to get the upgraded original decks so they're playable with the new decks?

If I want to upgrade the first edition decks to second edition play, what does that involves? Scrapping the old decks and getting entirely upgraded decks? Adding a few errata cards? Playing the old decks with different rules? I'm confused.

The bottom line is that I want to be able to add new decks if possible, as inexpensively as possible, without having too many redundant cards.

Any ideas?
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J
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Get the v1 revisions plus whatever expansion decks you want
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Driver 8 wrote:
I'm really undecided about what to do with the Kickstarter that's ending this week. I really like the idea of adding more decks and characters to the game. As I see it, my options are...

1)Continue to play with the cards I have and ignore any changes that have been made. No extra characters.

2)Get the expansion(s) that add new decks, and then...Here's where things get fuzzy. Would I then have to get the upgraded original decks so they're playable with the new decks?

If I want to upgrade the first edition decks to second edition play, what does that involves? Scrapping the old decks and getting entirely upgraded decks? Adding a few errata cards? Playing the old decks with different rules? I'm confused.

The bottom line is that I want to be able to add new decks if possible, as inexpensively as possible, without having too many redundant cards.



Glad to read there are more people who have the same feeling about this as I have.

If I buy the revision cards, the EX Powerup and the 10 expansion decks, it will cost me 150 dollars + almost 25 for shipping to the Netherlands, which REALLY is A LOT. And what am I going to do with 'the old box', as it seems pretty useless when I own the EX Powerup box (everything fits in there, right?)?

I could skip the EX Powerup to save 45 Dollars, but having to pay almost 130 Dollars still is a lot. But here am I going to leave those 10 expansion decks without the EX Powerup (as the expansion decks don't seem to fit in 'the old box')?



For now, I've decided to not support it on Kickstarter. The 10 decks from the complete collection will do for me. If a better offer might be added to the Kickstarter campaign (which I don't expect to be), I might change my mind.
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Jack Darwid
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I have the Complete First Edition too.

Please read the second FAQ on the KS update on the bottom of the Yomi KS page. To really upgrade CFE to second edition, the CFE needs a major overhaul, and the upgrade pack only handles the important things. In that FAQ you will read that even David Sirlin, the designer, doesn't recommend that since CFE+upgrade pack means half baked second edition (unless you are ok with that).

And for me, if there is an upgrade I need a real upgrade to make the game really second edition. Sadly, the only way is to throw CFE and buy the whole thing again.

With that in mind, I have two choices:
1. throw CFE somewhere then buy the whole thing, 10+10+whatever there is
2. stay with CFE.

Recently I play CFE more with my gaming group and having real fun. I use old rules (since the new rules, including the online version, have changed things) and use the solo rules from the new rulebook to teach new players, the solo rule is fun!

So far we enjoy the game a lot and I think CFE is enough for us... for now.
Of course the new characters are teasing me all the time on the online version
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JackDarwid wrote:
I have the Complete First Edition too.

Please read the second FAQ on the KS update on the bottom of the Yomi KS page. To really upgrade CFE to second edition, the CFE needs a major overhaul, and the upgrade pack only handles the important things. In that FAQ you will read that even David Sirlin, the designer, doesn't recommend that since CFE+upgrade pack means half baked second edition (unless you are ok with that).

And for me, if there is an upgrade I need a real upgrade to make the game really second edition. Sadly, the only way is to throw CFE and buy the whole thing again.

With that in mind, I have two choices:
1. throw CFE somewhere then buy the whole thing, 10+10+whatever there is
2. stay with CFE.

Recently I play CFE more with my gaming group and having real fun. I use old rules (since the new rules, including the online version, have changed things) and use the solo rules from the new rulebook to teach new players, the solo rule is fun!

So far we enjoy the game a lot and I think CFE is enough for us... for now.
Of course the new characters are teasing me all the time on the online version :D


Ah, okay! That leaves me the same 2 choices you have.

The first choice will cost me 240 dollar + 45 dollar shipping costs, while I've already invested 100 dollar in this game.

That leads to my final option: stay with CFE and no support on Kickstarter. Thanks!
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Kaiwen Zhang
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get the player aid that lists all differences between 1st and 2nd, then you dont need to buy anything
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Driver 8
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I ran into a similar situation when Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) came out. I owned everything for the first edition, and now had to buy the game all over again. The good news was that Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) – Conversion Kit came out, which meant that the demand for first edition stuff actually went up! So I was able to trade away what I didn't want and recoup costs.

The bad thing about Yomi first edition is, now that the second edition is new and improved, who's going to want the first edition? I think I'm going to stick with what I have too. Besides, it's still a good game, right?
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Driver 8 wrote:
I ran into a similar situation when Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) came out. I owned everything for the first edition, and now had to buy the game all over again. The good news was that Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) – Conversion Kit came out, which meant that the demand for first edition stuff actually went up! So I was able to trade away what I didn't want and recoup costs.

The bad thing about Yomi first edition is, now that the second edition is new and improved, who's going to want the first edition? I think I'm going to stick with what I have too. Besides, it's still a good game, right?


*I* want the complete first Edition! Actually I hope the second ed would cause a lower price for first edition; then I am going to get the decks I miss for the old characters.

The yomi "conversion kit" is the pack of upgraded cards that you can get together with the Round 2 pack (4 explanation characters) or the full 10 new characters pack.

johncraven wrote:
get the player aid that lists all differences between 1st and 2nd, then you dont need to buy anything


But since the OP would like to get the new characters, he could just get say Round 2, and the revised cards for little more.
The revised cards are just those changes already printed on nice card stock.

 
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Alejandro Magno
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The bad thing about Yomi first edition is, now that the second edition is new and improved,

I will say that actually the improved part is not straightforward in the opinion of some players (me included).
Different? yes Improved? mmm.

New version of yomi has a great visual design improvements, and is a little more balanced in terms of matchups.

However games are faster, shorter and more agressive. Where v1 matches are slower peaced, resource thight, and because of that I feel they are less variance and more strategical.

Sirlin and Many feel that the new faster, shorter and more agressive gameplay is better. And Many people will feel that too.
Personally and i´m not alone, I feel the old matchups were better.
Do not be mistaken i think both versions are great, but that is my point. There is value in v1 over v2.

I willprobably play v2 because the true is that tournaments are gonna run in v2, and I´m a heavy tournament player.
But If I would just choose a set to have for my personal gaming group, I would undoubtly pick V1 as I enjoy the matches more.
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Mike Beiter
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So to clarify. Paying to upgrade my version 1 decks will not be the same as buying 2nd edition?

 
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Dennis
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The "upgrade pack" is a set of all the cards that were mechanically changed. Cards that only underwent rewrites for clarity or purely cosmetic changes are not included.
Thus, a "real" 2nd Edition set looks differently than an upgraded 1st Edition set.
Gameplaywise, they're identical, though.
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Big Sixer
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One thing to note however if you do decide to just get the upgrade pack: the colors on the backs of the cards may not be a perfect match. In my estimation this would ruin the game for me, so I opted to purchase the complete new set, even though I own the 1st edition complete set as well.
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Mike Beiter
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RindFisch wrote:
The "upgrade pack" is a set of all the cards that were mechanically changed. Cards that only underwent rewrites for clarity or purely cosmetic changes are not included.
Thus, a "real" 2nd Edition set looks differently than an upgraded 1st Edition set.
Gameplaywise, they're identical, though.


Thank you for easing my concerns. As long as they are mechanically identical I am happy!
 
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Stephen Shaw
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JackDarwid wrote:
I have the Complete First Edition too.

Please read the second FAQ on the KS update on the bottom of the Yomi KS page. To really upgrade CFE to second edition, the CFE needs a major overhaul, and the upgrade pack only handles the important things. In that FAQ you will read that even David Sirlin, the designer, doesn't recommend that since CFE+upgrade pack means half baked second edition (unless you are ok with that).

And for me, if there is an upgrade I need a real upgrade to make the game really second edition. Sadly, the only way is to throw CFE and buy the whole thing again.

With that in mind, I have two choices:
1. throw CFE somewhere then buy the whole thing, 10+10+whatever there is
2. stay with CFE.

Recently I play CFE more with my gaming group and having real fun. I use old rules (since the new rules, including the online version, have changed things) and use the solo rules from the new rulebook to teach new players, the solo rule is fun!

So far we enjoy the game a lot and I think CFE is enough for us... for now.
Of course the new characters are teasing me all the time on the online version


I just read that FAQ and it seems as if all of the changes are cosmetic, formatting, and art. Am I missing something?
 
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Alejandro Magno
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I just read that FAQ and it seems as if all of the changes are cosmetic, formatting, and art. Am I missing something?

Mechanically the most important change is that now Normal attacks draw a card when they win combat or are blocked.
That change can be easily transported since it´s a rulebook rule.
However it shapes how the game is played, and several rebalances are made in order to accomodate that rule. Thus the 10 old characters change SOME cards in order to:
1. Rebalance the game to accomodate for the new rule
2. Fix some problematic matchups of V1 (specifically Lum vs Rook, but also help other matchups like Grave vs Val and Grave vs Lum)
3. Do changes to fit the style of the character (Specifically Jaina was redone to be an agressive character , instead of a control character)
4. Some other changes were made to fix some weird interactions with v2 characters
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Jack Darwid
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@Waterd or David if he read this:

I have only the Complete First Edition and nothing else (no promos etc),so far we enjoy CFE a lot using the old rules which is included in the CFE.

I know that the rules have improved after CFE to make the game more balanced and to adjust the game because of the new 10 fighters.

After playing the game online a bit, I think all the new rule changes are implemented because of the new 10 characters (is that right?):
1. remove the effect of double knockdown
2. when a deck is empty the game stops, higher HP wins
3. healing cannot go above HP max
4. hand limit of 12 cards
5. normal attack gets a bonus draw

If I want to play with only CFE, what rule changes do you think I should implemented with minimal work to make the game better? (I don't want to change the cards' text, just the rules). Or just use the old rules as is?
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David Sirlin
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The first four items on that list are very minor. You can easily use those rules with the first edition without any problem. Note that at first glance the hand limit is a huge nerf to Lum, but actually he's fine after that based on extensive testing. In fact, if you play Lum vs Rook, you might want to play it without Lum's Queen doing any block damage (another nerf). That fixes the most unfair match in the base set.

The normal draw rule is the one that changes the most. There are several other changes to accommodate it. I think you could get away with very minimal other changes if you wanted though. If you do play with normal draw, I'd suggest this minimal set of changes to go along with it:

a) Rook and Midori get "defense mastery" on their character cards. (When they block a normal attack, the opponent DOESN'T draw.) This really differentiates them as grapplers and means it's harder to build a hand vs them (which is good and fair).

b) Rook's King beats attacks of speed 5.0 or faster.

c) Maybe cap Valerie's Burst of Speed increase at 1.0 because she's pretty damn good with normal draw.

Don't hold me to this answer, I might have forgotten something.
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Alejandro Magno
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JackDarwid wrote:

If I want to play with only CFE, what rule changes do you think I should implemented with minimal work to make the game better? (I don't want to change the cards' text, just the rules). Or just use the old rules as is?

If you do not want to change cards, only rules. I would change nothing.
Change number 1 is just thematic. It felt dumb there is a combat phase when both guys were in the floor and did not represent actual fighting games.
2 and 3 are mostly there because Gloria, which otherwise would have very long games sometimes.
4. Is just there so players do not have to play with 15 cards in hand, and also to slightly force more agressive plays from some characters (mainly lum and Rook)
5. Is the BIG BIG change. And is a change in direction. If you are asking ¨how to improve your game¨as it looks, I would suggest just use old rules. HOwever I encourage you to try this rule as it shapes the game and as I siad many people feel the game is more fun with it. So if you do try it, you should follow sirlin suggestions of ¨change cards¨ just so you don´t clash with a big imbalance, that do not let you appreciate this rule. Another way is just to play online to try this rule.
However If you do enjoy more how the game changes with this rule, I strongly suggest do some effort to convert your version to second edition or buy everthing new.
However if you are not super happy with this rule, I would suggest to just stick with the old rules.

I could write a paper on how the rule changes the game. But the most noticeable thing, and the main reason it gets supports is that, in V1 if you weren´t carefull with your hand, you will easily end with many characters with a few cards in hand and bad options, and your opponent could capitalize on it making you fight a hard uphill battle.
Many players enjoy playing combo after combo, and the idea that they have to hold themselves to not end in that situation is annoying/frustrating/not fun. If you feel the same, this rule solves that.
However it makes the games shorter, more volatile and less strategical as you do not need to plan so much ahead or worry to much of ending with a low/predictable hand.

My personal suggestion is that if you didn´t have the feeling of frustration when your hand is empty after doing 1 or 2 combos. Don´t worry too much and play V1, unless you really want and plan to get the new 10 extra characters or want to be heavily involved in the competitive community of the game, then V2 is a must.
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Jack Darwid
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Thank you for the answers, now I know why the "draw after normal attack" rule is implemented. You are right, its easy to have 0 or 1 or 2 cards in hand after 1 or 2 combos...

The majority of my gaming group like to play casual game, that's why I don't want to give many exceptions and want to keep all the card as is.

So without any rule changes (or just change 1-4 at most) the worst matchup is Lum vs Rook? Too bad we haven't tried Lum since one card needs replacement (and Game Salute said the replacement card is on the way, thanks to them!).

I tried to find a matchup chart for the CFE before any changes but can't find it (the closest is here and here). I hope Lum vs Rook in CFE is not that bad
 
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David Sirlin
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7-3 matchups are totally normal to have in any asymmetric game with 10+ sides. They make up like over 30% of the matchups in, well, certain other popular games. In first edition Yomi, there's probably just Lum vs. Rook with that rating. 7-3 is still very winnable of course, it's just that we might as well smooth that out when there's a chance to fix stuff. Removing the block damage on Lum's Queen means he can't recur it on block, so that gives Rook more breathing room. Not like it's broken the original way or anything though.
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colin langton
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Sirlin wrote:
b) Rook's King beats attacks of speed 5.0 or faster.

normal attacks only!!
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Stephen Shaw
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It's a little late in the day, but I wanna be perfectly clear before I commit my pledge (or withdraw it, as it were):

If I have the CFE and purchase the $150 expansion characters +EX +v1 revised cards, all of my decks will be tourney legal, right?

Will I need to do any other alteration to the v1 (CFE) cards in order to make them correct/legal/correct with the new rulesets?

I understand that the advised option is to get it all for $240, but I find that personally ridiculous, if I own the CFE. Here's to hoping the printed v1 fix is truly a 100% fix.
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David Sirlin
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Sure they are tournament legal. Just be aware of the numerous drawbacks mentioned at the bottom of the kickstarter page in the faq. Your normal attacks won't say to draw a card, for example, because giving a revised copy of every single normal attack in the game just to change that help text is ridiculous (that's like 50% of the cards in the whole set right there.) Same with every single ability box having different formatting with the timing tag.

But the actual game data would be correct, so yes legal.
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