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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Jor'nor and their Universities. rss

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Josh Koehn
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I have recently played my first game of TI3, and It seemed that the powerhouse of this game is Jol'nor. They teched up every turn, and got war suns on like turn three, even with that minor -1 on all combat rolls a wars sun still rolls 3 dice for a four and can carry 6 fighters, bombard a planet, and has two health.

Does anyone agree that these Scholars are not to be trifled with?
Or does anyone have a way to stop them, short of never using the Technology strategy/kill them fast and first?
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Scott Randolph
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...play about 10 more games, Jol-Nar are very good, but certainly not the best...Yssaril and Naalu are hands-down, running away, the best Great Races in the game.
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Necessary Evil
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Jol-Nar are no where near the strongest.

As you learn to play you will realize that the value of tech fades as the game progresses. Most of the techs they get are to bring them even in combat with the rest of the races.

-M
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Washington Irving
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Shattered Empire has only 1/2 as many technology related objectives as the base game, and it achieves this purely by reducing the number of Stage I tech objectives, so you end up expecting ~3x as many technology objectives in the base game as you do in Shattered Empire.

When technologies aren't directly converted into points the value of Jol-Nor's rapid tech growth is much less.

They only get that free tech if they pay for it, which isn't cheap, and their relative need to get Warsuns also demands a lot of resources. Making an effort to box them in early or denying them trade for the first round or two can delay their ascension until they are too far behind in points and don't have enough rounds to come back.
 
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Andy Day

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Jol Nar suck.

They spend all their time and money teching up. If they have competent opponents, they'll never have time to churn out tons of tech AND fleets. And thus they lose.

Noobs tend to sit back and do nothing for a long time (we sure did!) and this tends to favor slow races like the UJN.
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Jonathan Challis
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SFRR wrote:
...play about 10 more games, Jol-Nar are very good, but certainly not the best...Yssaril and Naalu are hands-down, running away, the best Great Races in the game.


I've played 60-80 games as I'd say they are the best. As written, not the Yssaril are best, but as errated in the FAQ, JolNar are best, unless your group is very aggressive early (none of my various groups are).
 
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Scott Lewis
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As with most things, it depends in large measure on the group.

In the games I've played (maybe not in the 60-80 range, but at least several dozen), Jol-nar are definitely top tier, but not "the best" at all. They are good in games with Tech objectives, and with less hostile races near them. They often get severely crippled in games without tech objectives and/or hostile neighbor races that can overpower them.

It all depends on many factors. Player strategy is not a small one of the factors, either.

I don't think there can ever be a definitive "this is the way it is, period" statement in terms of "best" or "worst" races, because that answer is going to vary greatly between groups based on playstyle, player habits, etc.
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bob mackenzie
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jol,nar are quite a strong race with their technology i do agree. however as players have pointed out they are only an average race, however as with all races if left unchecked they can all wreck havoc. the yssural tribe hands down is the best however.
 
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David Damerell
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DuelistofAges wrote:
Or does anyone have a way to stop them, short of never using the Technology strategy/kill them fast and first?


Technology isn't everything, particularly with SE objectives (or some botched-up mix of SE and vanilla objectives); but unless it's a 4 or 8 player game, taking Technology with the Jol'Nar in the mix is not often an attractive choice. That forces them to take it themselves, and there's a heavy opportunity cost for that.

Also, a warsun looks impressive, but is not much good without a strong economy to produce escorts. By itself, it's two hits to kill.

If the Nekro are in play they can quite seriously vex the Jol-Nar.
 
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Steve Williams
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KalKraken wrote:
They only get that free tech if they pay for it, which isn't cheap, //


It is worth pointing out that the Jol-Nar may opt to only receive the free technology from the primary for 1 command counter. This is verified in the FAQ.

TI3 FAQ 2.5 wrote:
A: When the Jol-Nar player resolves the secondary ability of the Technology Card, he may also (in addition) execute the primary ability. This allows the Jol-Nar to both receive a free Technology (for the primary ability), as well as purchase a Technology if desired (for the secondary ability). The Jol-Nar player may choose to receive only the free technology for the primary ability, and choose not to pay X resources for a second Technology.


That said, the value of most technology scales with the number of technology-related objectives in the game, and thus the strength of the Jol-Nar scales equally. When there are no tech objectives out, it becomes [generally] incorrect for the Jol-Nar to purchase more than their free tech each round, as they need to spend those resources on fleets that can go out and complete or protect objectives.
 
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Washington Irving
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Wow! Thanks for pointing out that FAQ bit.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Jol-Nar as printed are a top Tier race, but not the best. That FAQ (which is really errata, because the RAW wording indisputably reaches the opposing conclusion) is what pushes them to the top.

But I do accept that different groups and playstyles will affect this. I play in 3 groups, and another couple looser circles, but they all have a lot in common - long War, big board, original objectives, mostly 8p, and I can see that reversing all of those variables makes them weaker and a more militaristic game (which we all dislike), but in that environment Naalu for example are better.

But Jol-Nar are amazing in any group, we are only splitting hairs on the title of 'best'. Even if I knew I'm going to be in combat with both neighbours on turn 2-3 then I'd still pick them above any race (and I'm a huge Yssaril fan btw) except maybe in a 5p game.
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Dmitry Volevodz
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What exactly in FAQ gives more power to them? Free technology could really be understood from strategy card, and the FAQ also nerfs Jol-Nar that all combat rolls should be affected by -1, as pre-faq everybody thought that PDS fire and relevant non-battle rolls would be unaffected.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Voley wrote:
What exactly in FAQ gives more power to them? Free technology could really be understood from strategy card, and the FAQ also nerfs Jol-Nar that all combat rolls should be affected by -1, as pre-faq everybody thought that PDS fire and relevant non-battle rolls would be unaffected.


As written they get the free tech if they buy a tech. As 'clarified' they get the free tech even without buying one.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Kelanen wrote:
Voley wrote:
What exactly in FAQ gives more power to them? Free technology could really be understood from strategy card, and the FAQ also nerfs Jol-Nar that all combat rolls should be affected by -1, as pre-faq everybody thought that PDS fire and relevant non-battle rolls would be unaffected.


As written they get the free tech if they buy a tech. As 'clarified' they get the free tech even without buying one.

I disagree. I interpret the as-written to match what the FAQ says. It says you may execute the primary when doing the secondary. It never specifies the order, nor do the specify that when activating the secondary specify that if you activate the secondary of Tech that you must actually follow through in buying the tech.

Both interpretations are valid by the way it's worded, so I think it's a clarification, not a change. Obviously you feel differently, but regardless, that's what the FAQ entry is there, to emphasize what the INTENT of the ability was, regardless of how people interpreted it.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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sigmazero13 wrote:

It says you may execute the primary when doing the secondary.


My emphasis.

I don't see how "when doing secondary" can mean "also when you NOT doing the secondary"

But I know we have disagreed on this for a long time. I am not aware of anyone I have played with that has ever read the Jol-Nar bility as printed, and come to the conclusion that it works they way they clarified it. In a lot of those groups this is the only item in that FAQ that is knowingly disregarded. It's certainly the only house rule we commonly play, and I abhor house rules.

It's held as errata by all us who have looked into it, and honestly, I don't believe FFG that it was the intent. It was damn poorly worded as well as overpowered if so IMO.
 
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Scott Lewis
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You still have to pay for the secondary either way. My point is, that is what triggers the secondary. You could then just make the choice not to buy anything after doing so.

The FAQ apparently agrees with that interpretation And clarifies that you choose the order.
 
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