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Battle Above the Clouds» Forums » Rules

Subject: When to perform cavalry retreat rss

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Gordon G
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In the five steps identified in the March sequence, para 5.1, when does one perform the Cavalry Retreat, for a unit starting adjacent?

Para 7.7 just says to perform a cavalry retreat when a unit "begins a march".

Is that before the units movement die roll, after the unit's movement die roll, after the extended march die roll?
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Patrick Pence
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I believe it is first, before the movement is rolled. Whatever result is generated from the cav retreat is applied to the subsequent movement roll.

But, I can see the movement roll generated first, to give the cavalry the option of knowing his potential March amount, but prior to the Extended March roll.

Ed makes the clarification! laugh
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Ed Beach
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The movement roll definitely comes first. You want the cavalry unit to know how strong an attack (Prepared, Normal, Hasty) it is threatened with.
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Gordon G
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Ed Beach wrote:
The movement roll definitely comes first. You want the cavalry unit to know how strong an attack (Prepared, Normal, Hasty) it is threatened with.


So using this logic, if the cavalry unit should know the strength of the marching/attacking unit then the cav retreat die roll should also occur after the marching/attacking units Extended March die roll?

Sequence would be;

1- Marching units movement dr
2- Marching units Extended March dr (if applicable)
3- Cavalry retreat units dr

Is that correct?
 
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Gordon G
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Bump.

Still looking for an answer/opinion on when to roll a Cav retreat dr.

Before or after the enemy units EM dr.

Option 1
1- Marching units movement dr
2- Marching units Extended March dr (if applicable)
3- Cavalry retreat units dr

Option 2
1- Marching units movement dr
2- Cavalry retreat units dr
3- Marching units Extended March dr (if applicable)


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Patrick Pence
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For the EM roll, I've always used option #2. This presumes the cavalry only has partial information, and they may benefit from standing their ground and having the infantry fail their Extended March roll. But most times, they are going to skedaddle.
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Chris Montgomery
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GordoMG wrote:
Bump.

Still looking for an answer/opinion on when to roll a Cav retreat dr.

Before or after the enemy units EM dr.

Option 1
1- Marching units movement dr
2- Marching units Extended March dr (if applicable)
3- Cavalry retreat units dr

Option 2
1- Marching units movement dr
2- Cavalry retreat units dr
3- Marching units Extended March dr (if applicable)


Per the Extended March section (p. 8, Rules ver. 1.2), under Rule 5.1, Extended March takes place "before proceeding to Step 3". The march itself does not begin until Step 5.

1. Select a unit, roll a die.
2. Increase Fatigue .
(Roll EM)
3. Decide to Force March (or not).
4. Place Active Movement Allowance Marker.
(Cav Retreat? Yes or No.)
5. Perform the March.

In the 7.7 Cavalry Retreat sequence (p. 19, Rules ver. 1.2) , the "Starts Adjacent" section, this would be at Step 5 to my mind - it requires the unit to "begin a march" - meaning they know how many movement points they have, have rolled for EM, and have decided whether or not to Force March, all before they actually begin to move.

Therefore, to my mind, they must be at Step 5 of the March sequence.

This is my interpretation - which I think is pretty clear and consistent with the rules as well as common sense.

However - the last bit of 7.7 (p. 19) does cloud the issue:

"A player wishing to declare a cavalry retreat must make his declaration as soon as any of the above circumstances occur — before the enemy player declares an attack (or, in the case of an assault action, before the enemy player rolls a die to determine whether or not the assault takes place). If he does not make the declaration at this moment, he forfeits his ability to perform a cavalry retreat in the hex occupied by his cavalry unit for the duration of the enemy unit’s march. "

I take this to mean, that at the instant before Step 5 the cavalry must elect to retreat or not, before the player knows whether or not the cavalry unit will actually be attacked.

(Sorry to disagree, Patrick!)
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Gordon G
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The more I look at Para 5.1 March sequence I think the EM dr would occur before the Cav retreat dr.

Step 2 lays out the EM dr procedure then talks about cav retreat at the end of the step.

Chris, using your template;

1. Select a unit, roll a die.

2. Increase Fatigue.
2.5 (Roll EM)
2.6 (Roll Cav Retreat)

3. Decide to Force March (or not).
4. Place Active Movement Allowance Marker.
5. Perform the March.

(Sorry to disagree Patrick and Chris)
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Chris Montgomery
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That would be correct, Gordon. I've read the damn rules so many times, I still forget what is where. Your interpretation also means that you agree with Patrick!

And so do I.

As usual, he is right.

 
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Gordon G
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No, Patrick was advocating for the Cav retreat dr to occur before the EM dr.

That would place the cav retreat dr before step 2, not after it.

So to summarize, the Cav retreat dr is accomplished;

Patrick: after step 1 (movement dr) but before step 2 (EM dr) of March sequence
Chris: after step 4 (place Movement marker) but before step 5 (perform march) of the March sequence
Gordon: after step 2 (EM dr) but before step 3 (forced march dr) of the march sequence

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Chris Montgomery
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GordoMG wrote:
No, Patrick was advocating for the Cav retreat dr to occur before the EM dr.

That would place the cav retreat dr before step 2, not after it.

So to summarize, the Cav retreat dr is accomplished;

Patrick: after step 1 (movement dr) but before step 2 (EM dr) of March sequence
Chris: after step 4 (forced march dr) but before step 5 (perform march) of the March sequence
Gordon: after step 2 (EM dr) but before step 3 (forced march dr) of the march sequence



Except, if it wasn't clear from my previous post - I believe you are clearly correct and Patrick and I are clearly wrong.

Step 3 (p. 7) clearly states that the Cav Retreat die roll occurs "before proceeding to Step 3" - which would necessary occur after Step 2. Step 2 specifically includes EM. It is not ambiguous in the slightest.

Quote:
1. Select a unit, roll a die.
2. Increase Fatigue and Roll EM if necessary.
2.5 (Roll Cav Retreat)
3. Decide to Force March (or not).
4. Place Active Movement Allowance Marker.
5. Perform the March.


This is correct.
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Gordon G
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I think we have come to a violent agreement.
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Patrick Pence
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Luckily, I don't encounter this situation very often, so that explains my wrong interpretation.

So EM occurs before movement and then Cav retreat, got it.

Always room for improvement on rules.

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