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Item # 2 for me today is whether or not our children are on the verge at any second of being snatched by evil men and then raped and murdered.

The answer? Of course they are! This is a terribly dangerous country. We have guns, and the breakdown of civility and drugs and bad men lurking behind every bush. So this mother needs to be in jail because even though her daughter wasn't raped and murdered it was only a matter of time -

Mom gets jail for being bad mom.

Basically, she let her kid play at a busy and popular park right next to where she works while she was working. The police arrested her for.... you know... abandoning a child.

This shit really has to stop. Who the hell calls the police because they see a kid playing in a park surrounded by 30 or 40 other kids? I understand calling the cops if you see a toddler in a locked car parked outside a bar or store. Hell, I'd break the window and extract the kid while calling the cops.

But I go to parks. A lot of them. I have a kid in elementary school. There are often as many as 50 kids playing and no way are there enough parents nearby, unless everyone there is a Mormon. Not once, ever, have I ever even thought about asking a kid I don't know where their mother is. It's creepy. And it's even worse that this hard working single mom gets arrested because her daughter was at a park.
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Quote:
I understand calling the cops if you see a toddler in a locked car parked outside a bar or store. Hell, I'd break the window and extract the kid while calling the cops.


Funny you mention that. From the "related articles" section at your link: Link

Quote:
Tennessee has just made it legal to break into a car if you see a child in there and have a "good faith belief" that he or she will suffer harm if not immediately removed.

In other words, feel free to get out the crowbar.


And there's this article, too.

Sometimes it seems like we'd be better off jailing the busybodies.
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I wish I could say "unbelievable", but its not. I applaud adults who get involved when there is a real problem, but a 9-year old playing in a park is not one. The judgment of the police is as bad, if not worse.

Among many other things, this situation is yet another instance of an inability to recognize the difference between "something potentially could go bad somewhere, sometime", and "a signficant risk of harm".

Hey Tripp, do you think the CDC should research the health and safety outcomes of kids who play in a park for several hours a day vs. those who sit in a McDonald's and surf the Internet?

Edited for grammar error.
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I guess there is some pertinent information required.

#1. What does the law state is the minimum age a child can be unaccompanied in public by an adult?

#2. Is there such a law?

#3. Does this law also cover children playing outside the home around the neighborhood?

I mean, we have a 9 year old, which can be on the cusp of independence. We certainly wouldn't agree parents leaving their kid unaccompanied by a parent at age 3, 4, 5, 6...then 7? 8? 9?

Where is the age of agreement that we think "this kid should have a parent watching them"? and "This kid is old enough to be playing outside without parent supervision"
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actuaryesquire wrote:


Hey Tripp, do you think the CDC should research the health and safety outcomes of kids who play in a park for several hours a day vs. those who sit in a McDonald's and surf the Internet?

Edited for grammar error.


I think first they need to do a survey to better understand how many kids at parks are from homes with land lines versus how many kids sitting in McDonalds have access to a cell phone.

Sue might want to research this one for us.
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DWTripp wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:


Hey Tripp, do you think the CDC should research the health and safety outcomes of kids who play in a park for several hours a day vs. those who sit in a McDonald's and surf the Internet?

Edited for grammar error.


I think first they need to do a survey to better understand how many kids at parks are from homes with land lines versus how many kids sitting in McDonalds have access to a cell phone.

Sue might want to research this one for us.


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actuaryesquire wrote:
The judgment of the police is as bad, if not worse.



Remember, the police can only enforce the laws. They didn't write the laws. The police can only see that there is a child under the legal limit to be unaccompanied in a public place and enforce that law.

Police are not comfortable in interpreting such laws, because if they did nothing and this kid did get abducted, then who would the fingers start point to?

This is about our level of laws in the name of safety, and if they are realistic or draconian.
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MWChapel wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
The judgment of the police is as bad, if not worse.



Remember, the police can only enforce the laws. They didn't write the laws. The police can only see that there is a child under the legal limit to be unaccompanied in a public place and enforce that law.

Police are not comfortable in interpreting such laws, because if they did nothing and this kid did get abducted, then who would the fingers start point to?

This is about our level of laws in the name of safety, and if they are realistic or draconian.


Yeah, but it also helps if they actually "know" the law. Since Sue wouldn't do this for me I had to look it up myself:

Laws about children being alone, by state. Latchkey.

If this is accurate then the mother in Georgia who got arrested can probably sue for enough money to pay for day camp According to this the age a child can be left unsupervised in Georgia is 8, and the girl was 9.

I think it's pretty clear that each child is different and trust levels are a parental call, not a call the police should be making. My youngest is 11 and while he's not as "mature" as some 11 year olds he is certainly mature enough to play at a park nearby and then come home when he's done. All this girl had to do if she needed to talk to mom was use the cell phone she had. Plus, the park was a mile from mom's work. That's not a long walk for a 9 year old on a sunny day. Is it?
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Here is the pertinent law in Texas.

Quote:
§ 22.041. ABANDONING OR ENDANGERING CHILD. (a) In this
section, "abandon" means to leave a child in any place without
providing reasonable and necessary care for the child, under
circumstances under which no reasonable, similarly situated adult
would leave a child of that age and ability.
(b) A person commits an offense if, having custody, care, or
control of a child younger than 15 years, he intentionally abandons
the child in any place under circumstances that expose the child to
an unreasonable risk of harm.


That is extremely vague in my opinion. I think such a law requires a lot of definition before they use it as a blanket for prosecution. I mean, letting kids play in a park, vs. dropping them off in the middle of a hot desert.

What is "unreasonable risk of harm"?

It sounds like in this case, the "unreasonable" risk is fairly small if anything at all.

The problem in prosecuting this law in "today's" News Induced Stress...It would be hard to find a jury that isn't tainted by "Internet Outrage" to make a reasonable assessment of what is and what is not "reasonable risk".
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MWChapel wrote:
Here is the pertinent law in Texas.

Quote:
§ 22.041. ABANDONING OR ENDANGERING CHILD. (a) In this
section, "abandon" means to leave a child in any place without
providing reasonable and necessary care for the child, under
circumstances under which no reasonable, similarly situated adult
would leave a child of that age and ability.
(b) A person commits an offense if, having custody, care, or
control of a child younger than 15 years, he intentionally abandons
the child in any place under circumstances that expose the child to
an unreasonable risk of harm.


That is extremely vague in my opinion. I think such a law requires a lot of definition before they use it as a blanket for persecution. I mean, letting kids play in a park, vs. dropping them off in the middle of a hot desert.

What is "unreasonable risk of harm"?

It sounds like in this case, the "unreasonable" risk is fairly small if anything at all.

The problem in prosecuting this law in "today's" News Induced Stress...It would be hard to find a jury that isn't tainted by "Internet Outrage" to make a reasonable assessment of what is and what is not "reasonable risk".


That's definitely vague. And it's for criminal offenses if I read it right. The link for Latchkey says the Texas Family & Protective Svcs provides the guidelines. Same here in Idaho and in Georgia. I doubt the law you quoted has anything to do with a child being left in a park for several hours causing charges of child abandonment like what happened in Georgia.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
The link for Latchkey says the Texas Family & Protective Svcs provides the guidelines.


Yeah, but they may define being a latchkey kid(One that is safe at home behind lock and key) vs. being alone in public to be two different scenarios.

And then those ages in most cases it sounds like are "Guidelines" and not really laws.

I hate guidelines, they have so much wiggle room for taking advantage of.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
The link for Latchkey says the Texas Family & Protective Svcs provides the guidelines.


Yeah, but they may define being a latchkey kid(One that is safe at home behind lock and key) vs. being alone in public to be two different scenarios.

And then those ages in most cases it sounds like are "Guidelines" and not really laws.

I hate guidelines, they have so much wiggle room for taking advantage of.


Is that not preferable to arbitrary strict laws?
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At the risk of Slatering my own thread I'll add this to what Chapel said:

Quote:
The problem in prosecuting this law in "today's" News Induced Stress...It would be hard to find a jury that isn't tainted by "Internet Outrage" to make a reasonable assessment of what is and what is not "reasonable risk".


The outrage is easy to see if you watch the news clip from the local channel. They actually say the girl was doing okay and was fine. As if being allowed to play in a park, with a water feature and tons of other kids on a sunny summer day would somehow result in a child not doing fine, or being okay... after several hours exposure to fun.

Every parody of news-whores is proven to be absolutely true by these scummy losers at that channel. If I was running the local news department I'd send a reporter after the concerned citizen who called the cops. She's probably got half a dozen abducted kids in wires cages in her basement.
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Quote:
§ 22.041. ABANDONING OR ENDANGERING CHILD. (a) In this
section, "abandon" means to leave a child in any place without
providing reasonable and necessary care for the child, under
circumstances under which no reasonable, similarly situated adult
would leave a child of that age and ability.
(b) A person commits an offense if, having custody, care, or
control of a child younger than 15 years, he intentionally abandons
the child in any place under circumstances that expose the child to
an unreasonable risk of harm.


As a parent myself, I would think this fits the term. Think about it. If you were a child predator where are you more likely to find your next victim ? Hanging out at the local pub, or going to the local park or playground where you have 50 kids running around and a dozen parents watching them ?
Personally, I wouldn't leave my none year old alone on a park a mile away from me. YMMV.
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galad2003 wrote:
When I was 9 (and most certainly younger) we went and played all day unsupervised. We had tons of woods around the house that we would go exploring all day and we ended up pretty far from the house. Heck when I was in 3rd grade (what's that 8 or 9?) I crossed a major road and got hit by a car. My mother would have been locked up now a days if that happened.


So did I. I used to wander the desert when I was a kid. And we took long trips sleeping in the back end of a Honda civic, and we were allowed to smoke in High School.

We did a lot of shit growing up which no one is allowed to do today...then again, we're allowed to bitch about it only because we were the survivors.

"I did alright" is one of those funny arguments that I see time and time again on Facebook. Yet, dead kids didn't grow up to have a Facebook account 20 years later.

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jonb wrote:
Quote:
§ 22.041. ABANDONING OR ENDANGERING CHILD. (a) In this
section, "abandon" means to leave a child in any place without
providing reasonable and necessary care for the child, under
circumstances under which no reasonable, similarly situated adult
would leave a child of that age and ability.
(b) A person commits an offense if, having custody, care, or
control of a child younger than 15 years, he intentionally abandons
the child in any place under circumstances that expose the child to
an unreasonable risk of harm.


As a parent myself, I would think this fits the term. Think about it. If you were a child predator where are you more likely to find your next victim ? Hanging out at the local pub, or going to the local park or playground where you have 50 kids running around and a dozen parents watching them ?
Personally, I wouldn't leave my none year old alone on a park a mile away from me. YMMV.


As a parent myself I think the vagueness of that "law" is ripe for abuse by meddling neighbors and over-reacting police.

Anyone who reads already knows the stats - the biggest risk of sexual abuse for your kids is your own family and your friends. Same goes for murder and beatings of children. It's not even questionable either, even the most conservative studies come back with 60% of all sexual abuse being done by family or close friends of the family.

Technically, if you're the frightened sort of parent, your kids are safer at a park full of kids they don't know and parents of kids they don't know than they are at home or at your neighbor's house.
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MWChapel wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
When I was 9 (and most certainly younger) we went and played all day unsupervised. We had tons of woods around the house that we would go exploring all day and we ended up pretty far from the house. Heck when I was in 3rd grade (what's that 8 or 9?) I crossed a major road and got hit by a car. My mother would have been locked up now a days if that happened.


So did I. I used to wander the desert when I was a kid. And we took long trips sleeping in the back end of a Honda civic, and we were allowed to smoke in High School.

We did a lot of shit growing up which no one is allowed to do today...then again, we're allowed to bitch about it only because we were the survivors.

"I did alright" is one of those funny arguments that I see time and time again on Facebook. Yet, dead kids didn't grow up to have a Facebook account 20 years later.



It's pretty safe out there, as you probably know. Maybe even safer than when you were a kid or when I was. There were dead kids when I was growing up just as there are now. Bad things happen not just because the parents ought to have known better but also because the universe doesn't comply with what we desire most. That's just the way it is.

Parenting is difficult because you have to weigh risk versus growth for your children. They need to experience life but they also need some sort of borders. That's the challenge. I'd not have a problem leaving my son to play in a park for an hour or more so long as he knew the borders, had a way to contact me and I trusted him to at least attempt to comply.

The only other route is to never let them out of your sight. And that means they'll end up either terrified of everyone or hatin' on you for being such a douche bag parent.

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DWTripp wrote:
Item # 2 for me today is whether or not our children are on the verge at any second of being snatched by evil men and then raped and murdered.

The answer? Of course they are! This is a terribly dangerous country. We have guns, and the breakdown of civility and drugs and bad men lurking behind every bush. So this mother needs to be in jail because even though her daughter wasn't raped and murdered it was only a matter of time -

Mom gets jail for being bad mom.

Basically, she let her kid play at a busy and popular park right next to where she works while she was working. The police arrested her for.... you know... abandoning a child.

This shit really has to stop. Who the hell calls the police because they see a kid playing in a park surrounded by 30 or 40 other kids? I understand calling the cops if you see a toddler in a locked car parked outside a bar or store. Hell, I'd break the window and extract the kid while calling the cops.

But I go to parks. A lot of them. I have a kid in elementary school. There are often as many as 50 kids playing and no way are there enough parents nearby, unless everyone there is a Mormon. Not once, ever, have I ever even thought about asking a kid I don't know where their mother is. It's creepy. And it's even worse that this hard working single mom gets arrested because her daughter was at a park.

One glaring detail was left out of that opinion column: If there are indeed some 40 other kids playing there in the park, were those kids accompanied there by a parent who was still there in the park while their kids were playing?

For all I know, that park may require parental supervision.

After all, many malls require minors to be accompanied by a parent or adult.


 
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Sure, the biggest risk is not the park, but that doesn't mean it is nil either. I don't fault anyone if they felt they were comfortable leaving their nine year old in a park. I wouldn't likely do it, but I'm ok if someone else wants to do so.

I'd be OK with tightening up these types of laws as well so that they are not so vague. But let's face it, that's not a high priority for lawmakers.
 
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DWTripp wrote:


It's pretty safe out there, as you probably know. Maybe even safer than when you were a kid or when I was. There were dead kids when I was growing up just as there are now. Bad things happen not just because the parents ought to have known better but also because the universe doesn't comply with what we desire most. That's just the way it is.

Parenting is difficult because you have to weigh risk versus growth for your children. They need to experience life but they also need some sort of borders. That's the challenge. I'd not have a problem leaving my son to play in a park for an hour or more so long as he knew the borders, had a way to contact me and I trusted him to at least attempt to comply.

The only other route is to never let them out of your sight. And that means they'll end up either terrified of everyone or hatin' on you for being such a douche bag parent.



I am on the opposite spectrum as my wife...who is a worry wart. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Did you hear what happened to that kid last week on the news" from her in the last week alone.

I live my life by the statistics. If X number of kids are abducted or raped out of XXX Millions of kids, then I feel safe. And I should. Statistically, most of what is shown on the news will never happen to any of my children. And if and when it does, no matter how "protected" you try and provide them, it was probably not going to affect the outcome.

Everybody dies someday. But it's not a reason to prevent your children from experiencing life. I don't want my kids cooped up surfing the internet fearing the outside world.

So I do my hardest to counteract my wife's worrisome ways.
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jonb wrote:
Sure, the biggest risk is not the park, but that doesn't mean it is nil either. I don't fault anyone if they felt they were comfortable leaving their nine year old in a park. I wouldn't likely do it, but I'm ok if someone else wants to do so.

I'd be OK with tightening up these types of laws as well so that they are not so vague. But let's face it, that's not a high priority for lawmakers.


Wait until yours start driving. That's when you'll know what it feels like for a momma bird to push their chick out of a nest 70 feet off the ground.

Every situation is different and every choice a parent or a child makes will always have the potential to end up tragic, or just painful. That's why I see helicopter parents as more of a threat to their own children than they are a positive influence. Because that's all you really are in the end - an influence. You may think you're "raising" kids but what you're actually doing is more like herding them until they leave home.

Sometimes, a lot of times, actually most times, the kid becomes safer and more able to see to their own safety and needs if they are "allowed" to figure some things out on their own. Like playing at a park unaccompanied by mom or dad. I remember clearly the first time my youngest kid asked if he could go to the park and didn't ask me to take him. He was thrilled and I was not. But I felt the same way with all my kids.

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In the summer I'd bolt out of the house in the morning, with a thick slice of buttered bread that my mother shoved in my mouth as I passed. A quarter or so covered the day's rations, and there was always a park fountain or garden hose handy.

The bicycle adventures lasted until about five, at which point I came home to catch some hell for being covered in dust and dirt head to toe.

Before bathing, my favourite supper was Kraft Spaghetti dinner, but it was often some kind of fight as my parents tried to make me eat "real food".

I don't think I saw my parents for two hours in twenty-four, and then it started again the next day.

We'd trek across half the city, never mind the park near the house?! Holy crap, I've been abused my entire childhood. Why didn't someone tell me.

I so pity today's young parents!
.
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Seems to me this is the natural progression of the liberal retard developed country. People lack the personal responsibility to take care of themselves or their kids so of course we need the government to swoop in on just about everything. Whine about this all you want liberal scum, this is your doing.
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MWChapel wrote:

So I do my hardest to counteract my wife's worrisome ways.


One argument that I've used to counter my wife's similar ways is to point out that she only heard about the "bad things happening" because they happen rarely enough that it when they do happen they are reported as news.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

It worked about as well as any rational response to an emotional situation....
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TheDashi wrote:
Whine about this all you want liberal scum, this is your doing.


You heard him, Tripp, you liberal scum. Quit your whining.
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