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Subject: Question for those who also played the 1996-Netrunner rss

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Just out of curiosity: in the first version of Netrunner, was there an equivalent to the current Astrotrain strategy? Which cards were involved? Thank you in advance.
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Captain Frisk
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I didn't play it, but i've heard about "psycho tycho"

http://www.arasaka.de/content/articles/trq/trq04/article5.ht...
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Tobin Lopes
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
I didn't play it, but i've heard about "psycho tycho"

http://www.arasaka.de/content/articles/trq/trq04/article5.ht...


Yep. That's the one. Score 4 AP, use ACME to gain your money back (sacrificing 1 AP) to then FA another Tycho for 4 AP and 7 total.

-tpl
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Mychal
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tobinlopes wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
I didn't play it, but i've heard about "psycho tycho"

http://www.arasaka.de/content/articles/trq/trq04/article5.ht...


Yep. That's the one. Score 4 AP, use ACME to gain your money back (sacrificing 1 AP) to then FA another Tycho for 4 AP and 7 total.

-tpl

I really like the change from sacrificing individual agenda points to sacrificing whole agendas. It makes for more interesting decisions both in-game, and when constructing your deck.
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Daniel Wray
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Skylar114 wrote:
tobinlopes wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
I didn't play it, but i've heard about "psycho tycho"

http://www.arasaka.de/content/articles/trq/trq04/article5.ht...


Yep. That's the one. Score 4 AP, use ACME to gain your money back (sacrificing 1 AP) to then FA another Tycho for 4 AP and 7 total.

-tpl

I really like the change from sacrificing individual agenda points to sacrificing whole agendas. It makes for more interesting decisions both in-game, and when constructing your deck.


Not to mention making a more balanced game.
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Captain Frisk
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Man, actually re-reading that article looks so similar to current meta:

Quote:

In nothing flat, Psycho Tycho decks became a pest. Most Netrunner players frown upon the deck a bit nowadays; while it's innovative and extremely strong in competition, it isn't very difficult to play and no fun at all to play against.


Quote:

time and again players have been tempted to call for bans, restrictions, or "errata".


Quote:
Most decks use lots of cheap ice like Filter and Data Wall to keep out the Runner in the early game, but some also include more expensive ice cards to fall back on if the game goes longer. *SNIP* Some devious Corps even go for a sprinkling of Tag 'n' Bag.


Quote:
A Runner who dares to face Psycho Tycho has to realize and exploit its weaknesses. Usually the Corp is hoping that the Runner will need a couple of turns to get icebreakers installed - afterwards, the cheap ice won't present much of an obstacle. *SNIP* Thus, if the Runner gets a couple of bits and Corrosion/Codecracker going in the first turn, all it takes to snatch victory from the Corp are some All-Hands and Rush Hours
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Man, actually re-reading that article looks so similar to current meta:

I wonder if the FA combo was in anyway responsible for the early demise of the game and history is repeating itself. Hope not.
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Andrew Lieffring
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fameros wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
Man, actually re-reading that article looks so similar to current meta:

I wonder if the FA combo was in anyway responsible for the early demise of the game and history is repeating itself. Hope not.


Nobody at WotC was looking at the state of the game when NR96 got canceled, just the fact that it wasn't selling as much as Magic.
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IncompleteUserNa wrote:
Nobody at WotC was looking at the state of the game when NR96 got canceled, just the fact that it wasn't selling as much as Magic.

Right. But it looks like they recognized Tycho Extension was bad for the game. It was banned from the 1999-2000 Tournament Season.
 
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fameros wrote:
Right. But it looks like they recognized Tycho Extension was bad for the game. It was banned from the 1999-2000 Tournament Season.

You really have to look at cards like Tycho Extension and Enterprise Inc Shields (another banned card) and wonder "What were they thinking?" Even taking into account that CCGs hadn't been around very long, I find it hard to imagine the scenario that would've allowed these cards out of playtesting.
 
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Man, EIC. Man. That card was an abomination. Those were the only two banned cards, but man, did they deserve it.
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pirate_chef wrote:
You really have to look at cards like Tycho Extension and Enterprise Inc Shields (another banned card) and wonder "What were they thinking?" Even taking into account that CCGs hadn't been around very long, I find it hard to imagine the scenario that would've allowed these cards out of playtesting.

You need to remember that playtesting mentality was very different at the time. The assumption was that each player is going to get a couple of starters and maybe a few booster packs, and that's about it. Player groups were assumed to be separate, with very little trading. Rare cards were supposed to be *very* rare, you might play the game for a year and not see many of the cards they printed. Using Tycho Extension as an example, it's a vital card, so you'd probably have one from your starter and that's it.

Edit: Looks like I got my timelines wrong, oNR was released enough after MtG to realize the mistake with rarities.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Except that anecdotal evidence from the Netrunner playtest teams shows that they did try to test the game for degenerate decks involving critical masses of strong cards. Somehow TE and EIC just got by, their strength not fully appreciated.
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Harris Enniss
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IirionClaus wrote:

You need to remember that playtesting mentality was very different at the time. The assumption was that each player is going to get a couple of starters and maybe a few booster packs, and that's about it. Player groups were assumed to be separate, with very little trading. Rare cards were supposed to be *very* rare, you might play the game for a year and not see many of the cards they printed. Using Tycho Extension as an example, it's a vital card, so you'd probably have one from your starter and that's it.


Yeah, but Enterprise, Inc., Shields was also common.
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IirionClaus wrote:
You need to remember that playtesting mentality was very different at the time. The assumption was that each player is going to get a couple of starters and maybe a few booster packs, and that's about it. Player groups were assumed to be separate, with very little trading. Rare cards were supposed to be *very* rare, you might play the game for a year and not see many of the cards they printed. Using Tycho Extension as an example, it's a vital card, so you'd probably have one from your starter and that's it.

I thought that Magic had been out long enough, by that time, for them to realize that kind of expectation was hopelessly naive.
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pirate_chef wrote:
IirionClaus wrote:
You need to remember that playtesting mentality was very different at the time. The assumption was that each player is going to get a couple of starters and maybe a few booster packs, and that's about it. Player groups were assumed to be separate, with very little trading. Rare cards were supposed to be *very* rare, you might play the game for a year and not see many of the cards they printed. Using Tycho Extension as an example, it's a vital card, so you'd probably have one from your starter and that's it.

I thought that Magic had been out long enough, by that time, for them to realize that kind of expectation was hopelessly naive.


ONR was 1996, right? They realized their mistake with rarity well before that (the power 9 were restricted well before then)
 
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pirate_chef wrote:

I thought that Magic had been out long enough, by that time, for them to realize that kind of expectation was hopelessly naive.


The article about Psycho Tycho posted earlier was from 1998. At that point Magic was releasing Urza's Saga. The winter of 1998-1999 was 'Combo Winter', where everything was degenerate. It was so bad one card had to be banned before it was released and ate the largest amount of banned cards in a season.
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There were several ways to do something similar to Astrotrain in ONR.

People already brought up Tycho extension:
Install Tycho extension (4/4 agenda), play Project Consultants for $12 (or similar card - this is essentially a super biotic labor). Use Acme S&L to get $12, repeat.


A strategy that was actually more similar to Astrotrain than this:

Artificial Security Directors + Corporate War.
Artificial Security Directors is a 3/1 agenda with the text 'the difficulty of your Black Ops agendas is decreased by 1. Imagine it as a 3/1 Astroscript that gave a bonus advancement on ALL your future agendas, not just one! Corp War in the original was a 3/3 agenda that could also get you $12 (lol!).

All you had to do to win was score one ASD. Now, you go Install-Advance-Advance on two Corp Wars to win. The ASD was similar to scoring an astroscript, doing so got you started. The followup was even more consistent than Astroscripts!


Too much ability to score agendas out of hand hurts netrunner, imo. The game is more exciting if the corp sometimes has to actually stick an agenda in play and then say 'Go'.
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Alexfrog wrote:
Artificial Security Directors is a 3/1 agenda with the text 'the difficulty of your Black Ops agendas is decreased by 1.

Reminds me of Medical Breakthrough.

Alexfrog wrote:
Too much ability to score agendas out of hand hurts netrunner, imo. The game is more exciting if the corp sometimes has to actually stick an agenda in play and then say 'Go'.

I know what you mean. The intent of the original design seems to be a game where one player sets little puzzles for the other player to solve using imperfect information. FA denies the opportunity to solve the puzzle.
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fameros wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Too much ability to score agendas out of hand hurts netrunner, imo. The game is more exciting if the corp sometimes has to actually stick an agenda in play and then say 'Go'.

I know what you mean. The intent of the original design seems to be a game where one player sets little puzzles for the other player to solve using imperfect information. FA denies the opportunity to solve the puzzle.


This is a great way of expressing why remote play should be a main focus of ANR.
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I feel like the game is balancing out, except for the ridiculousness of midseason-pyscho-astrotrain and andy. Lotus field stealing some of andy's thunder. I just want a fast advance face puncher that is still useful in other situations. NBN is still getting more fa toys in lunar (license thingy is stupid good, getting free sansans).
 
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In the last few days, one amazing card has helped me to snatch some victories against Astrotrain.
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Zebadiah wrote:
fameros wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Too much ability to score agendas out of hand hurts netrunner, imo. The game is more exciting if the corp sometimes has to actually stick an agenda in play and then say 'Go'.

I know what you mean. The intent of the original design seems to be a game where one player sets little puzzles for the other player to solve using imperfect information. FA denies the opportunity to solve the puzzle.


This is a great way of expressing why remote play should be a main focus of ANR.


I still hope for a card which prevents the corp from installing and scoring a card in the same turn. Similar to The Source.
 
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Kamakaze wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
fameros wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Too much ability to score agendas out of hand hurts netrunner, imo. The game is more exciting if the corp sometimes has to actually stick an agenda in play and then say 'Go'.

I know what you mean. The intent of the original design seems to be a game where one player sets little puzzles for the other player to solve using imperfect information. FA denies the opportunity to solve the puzzle.


This is a great way of expressing why remote play should be a main focus of ANR.


I still hope for a card which prevents the corp from installing and scoring a card in the same turn. Similar to The Source.


Why not just use the Source? It just got a ton more useful with the addition of Fall Guy.
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Kamakaze wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
fameros wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Too much ability to score agendas out of hand hurts netrunner, imo. The game is more exciting if the corp sometimes has to actually stick an agenda in play and then say 'Go'.

I know what you mean. The intent of the original design seems to be a game where one player sets little puzzles for the other player to solve using imperfect information. FA denies the opportunity to solve the puzzle.


This is a great way of expressing why remote play should be a main focus of ANR.


I still hope for a card which prevents the corp from installing and scoring a card in the same turn. Similar to The Source.

SO similar in fact.. WAIT.
 
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