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Subject: Question for 1st edition fans let down by 2nd edition rss

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Roland Belmont
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Hello all, I just want to start off by saying I love Descent 1st Edition with a rabid passion (I own all expansions, all RtL/SoB lieutenant miniatures, quest compendium, all promo characters, etc.) it is my favorite board game of all time and pretty much the only board game I ever play aside from the occasional Arkham/Eldritch Horror sessions.

I bought 2nd Edition IMMEDIATELY upon release and then sold it back just as quick. holy mother of god I hated that game. now this isn't a rant on how much I despise 2nd edition...It's just that for me personally 2nd edition felt like Descent for kids (I'm 32) It also didn't help that the new artwork looks so freaking childish and cartoony. I really tried hard to get into 2nd edition, I really did. I exaggerated how quickly I sold it back (I actually completed the whole campaign before getting rid of it) I LOVED the new class system that I felt was always lacking in 1st edition. I wanted to like 2nd edition, I wanted to LOVE it but alas...I did not.

So I am having the same Problem most 1st edition Descent players have... a busier work schedule keeps Descent neatly tucked away never seeing the light of day. Lately I've been seeing 2nd edition expansions being pumped out one after another like there's no tomorrow and I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me just a little bit interested again, MOSTLY due to the fact that my descent withdrawals have made me weak and i did recall the playtime in 2nd edition being shorter. Basically I was just curious if all the new expansions remedy a lot of the issues us 1st edition lovers had with 2nd edition or if it's still....weak sauce.

While on the subject of 2nd edition I just have to get this off my chest... another reason 2nd edition pisses me off so much is that it's like what $80 right now and they represent the BIG MIGHTY FEARSOME lieutenants as.......a 2 dimensional cardboard token. oh whoops they're sold separately. I can just feel the big fat fantasy flight middle finger being shoved into my freaking face with such a dick move. It reminds me of that scene from Spider-Man 3 where J. Jonah Jameson buys that cheap plastic camera from the little girl in the crowd who totally rips him off and upon opening the camera he notices there's no film in it to which the little girl replies "FILM'S EXTRA" in that super bratty voice. that's pretty much how I felt when I opened the box and saw freaking cardboard token Lieutenants.

I realize 1st edition did this as well and yes I was pissed about it, especially because it was SUCH a pain in the ASS to hunt down all the RtL lieutenants (I'm looking at YOU ALRIC!!!)...but after playing RtL after getting all the miniatures, all was forgiven. So the fact that I personally really did not like 2nd edition AND would have to buy all the boss monster miniatures again....I'll just say I was not a happy camper to keep this PG.

I apologize this is so long but I would seriously appreciate any input from 1st edition fans that were able to push on through 2nd edition and have played all the expansions. I need my descent fix so bad but if 2nd edition hasn't been VASTLY improved even after all these expansions....sigh...I will just have to continue living life descentless cry
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Try the Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) – Forgotten Souls. That fixed a lot of what was sucked in 2nd Ed for me and my group, and we've played that version about a dozen times now. I gave a detailed review at Does Forgotten Souls (official co-op mod) save Descent 2nd Ed?. In brief, it returned the sense of a dungeon crawler back to the game (exploring, incentive to kill lots of monsters, finding treasure, creating an epic map, all in one sitting) while retaining the 'improvements' of 2nd Ed (class system, better/focused XP, treasures, cleaned up monsters/effects/etc). It's a little lengthy of a sitting (about 3hrs), but it just worked.

The only real downfall is there's only one quest, but another is coming out in the fall, and of course fans can create their own. If you get a chance, give it a try. It might revive 2nd Ed for you.

-shnar
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Jan Tuijp
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beetelgeuse wrote:
I bought 2nd Edition IMMEDIATELY upon release and then sold it back just as quick. holy mother of god I hated that game. now this isn't a rant on how much I despise 2nd edition...


Well... if it is, it's certainly in the right forum.

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Frank Franco
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What was your question?
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duhtch
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
What was your question?


I think he just wanted to vent.

To the OP, I would just find friends and teach them Descent v1. Don't even bother with v2.

*edit* OOOOR, if you feel up for it, try the PBF group here on BGG.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/388217/descent-journeys-d...

It drastically helped me and my level of expertise. I think Corbon and Immortal are definitely some of the top players of this game.
 
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Roland Belmont
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Shnar
thanks for the heads up on that game night kit, I'll be sure to check out your review but damn only 1 quest?

Jan
I realize it my post may have turned into a bit of a rant and I apologize, it really wasn't my intention but it was really late when I wrote that post and that's really my only excuse

Skeletor
yeah, sorry my question got buried under 9 tons of rant lol my question was simply do all the new 2.0 expansions make the game fun and enjoyable for those of us that were initially super disappointed with the base game

Like I mentioned before I really wanted to like 2.0 but just couldn't get past all the issues I had with it. so I was just curious if there was anyone out there who wasn't a fan of 2.0 like me but has played it with all the expansions and whether or not that changed their opinion of the game

duhtch
I had a very consistent descent group before but after moving a year ago and with a much busier work schedule it's been impossible to set aside the time needed for a full game of 1.0 descent. I've never looked at the PBF here but I'll definitely take a look at it

thanks again for all your input guys and apologies again that my simple question turned into a bit of rant
 
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Frank Franco
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Quote:
yeah, sorry my question got buried under 9 tons of rant lol my question was simply do all the new 2.0 expansions make the game fun and enjoyable for those of us that were initially super disappointed with the base game


Depends on what you didn't like about it.
The quests have gotten better and everything is more fleshed out as the expansions have rolled along, but the mechanics havn't changed so it depends on how much and exactly what you disliked,
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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While the latter campaigns I think are better, they aren't much better. If you don't like the base game's quests, you won't like the other ones.

As for the GNK, a testament of how well I thought it 'fixed' Descent for me, I've played it over a dozen times and still like it. The exact same quest, over a dozen plays. Think about that for a second. This version of Descent not only has good replayability, it's enjoyable enough that a Descent 2nd Ed "hater" has played the same quest a dozen times and still enjoys playing it.

-shnar
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Roland Belmont
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I'll be honest and say a big part of my dislike of 2.0 is the aesthetics. Just not a fan of the cartoony art. I'm willing to try and grind my teeth and just look past it if the gameplay could make up for it.

I wasn't a fan of rolling for defense but I absolutely LOVED the new class system. (on that note does anyone know if anyone has tried to make a 1.0 variant that incorporates classes? that would be orgasmic)

I didn't like how you wouldn't feel like you were growing or "leveling up" in a single quest, that you had to play a number of quests as a campaign to feel any character growth but I was a big fan of special actions AND a heroic feat.

Didn't like how small everything felt...the maps, the missions, and all that cramming of gold, potions, treasure all into a generic random green token, but I suppose as of right now I am a fan of the shorter time frame needed to play a game given my current schedule.

Not a fan of a dead or "fallen" hero being of little to no consequence anymore...they just stand up again next turn, but I must say it was pretty awesome to see healers in descent now though.

I'll stop here since I could probably go on. I just want to say I'm not a pure hater of 2.0 even if it might seem like it. I just don't like Liars...and Descent 2nd Edition is board game that is Lying about being Descent. lol ok all kidding aside, there were definitely elements of 2.0 that I actually really really liked, that's why I'm currently on the fence about giving it another go now that all these new expansions are out. After reading Mr. Skeletor's last post though...I don't know, it seems like most of my issues with the game are with its basic mechanics which apparently haven't been changed at all even with all these new expansions.

I'll definitely do some more research on the GNK though. I will admit I lost interest after hearing it was only 1 quest but Shnar your last post has definitely helped me decide to look into it a bit more so thanks for that.


 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I had similar dislikes. I also disliked the way the game was less of a dungeon crawl and more of an adventure game that felt, well, 'race-y' (run to objectives). The GNK returns 2nd Ed back to 1st Ed's roots, and even makes it co-op (another bonus).

On your specific comments:

- Retains the 2nd Ed class system, and improves on it by giving you XP in one mission (you start with 1XP then can earn up to 5 more in the quest, and immediately spend it).

- There is much more growth in the 'one game' since you are drawing a lot of treasure cards and have XP to spend (treasure is a reward for killing monsters).

- 'Dying' is a big deal in the GNK since it increases the Fate track (one of the 'timers' of the game). Going down once isn't too big a deal. Going down twice in the same encounter room will probably end the game for you.

- The map is semi-random, and just feels epic at the end of the game (akin to 1st Ed's maps, with the added replayability bonus of being semi-random). Look at this image:



That's a whole game, start to finish. And if you don't have the table space to support it, you can tear down the map as you play (there's little to no reason to back track, another added benefit). It's almost like the different Areas of 1st Ed.

Anyways, read my review. I break down the mechanics, and more importantly how the GNK saves Descent for me and my group. We pretty much hate 2nd Ed, but love the GNK. There's a second quest coming out this fall, and I'm working on a custom one myself (not sure when I'll hve time to finish, but have made good progress on it). It's not terribly difficult to make a quest, so I imagine others will be joining in on the fun

-shnar
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Roland Belmont
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Shnar I can't thank you enough for all your input. I've said it before but I really wanted to like 2.0 and it sounds like we both had very similar issues with it but it's sounding more and more like GNK just might save 2.0 for me as well.

Only problems I have with it might be some of the limitations such as the VERY limited monsters you can use and replay value of a single quest. Really hope they either pump out more quests super often or make it so people could easily make their own scenarios that can include all monsters.

Just finished reading your review of GNK and I'm liking what I'm seeing so far. I'll be sure to check it out and I'm also looking forward to your custom made GNK scenario once it's finished so good luck with that.
 
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Jan Tuijp
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beetelgeuse wrote:
Jan
I realize it my post may have turned into a bit of a rant and I apologize, it really wasn't my intention but it was really late when I wrote that post and that's really my only excuse


You misunderstood. I like a good rant. Especially in the right forum. Which this is.

 
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Roland Belmont
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haha glad to hear it. Believe me I could have gone on and on in more R rated fashion but I was holding back quite a bit.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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beetelgeuse wrote:
Only problems I have with it might be some of the limitations such as the VERY limited monsters you can use and replay value of a single quest. Really hope they either pump out more quests super often or make it so people could easily make their own scenarios that can include all monsters.

Agreed. That's my only problem with this format of gameplay, how all the components are tied together. It would have been most excellent if they would have made a generic monster AI card system, say along the lines of Gears of War: The Board Game, so that you could add/remove monsters at will.

But even with this one drawback, it has made 2nd Ed a lot more enjoyable for me and mine and we're very excited for the next quest coming out (as well as our own, of course ).

-shnar
 
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Roland Belmont
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I definitely like the idea of a generic monster AI card system being able to add/remove monsters. Do you have an ETA for your own GNK quest yet?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I've got the hard part done, the maps, and am working on the AI cards. I'm not introducing any kind of reusable AI system, I'm doing the exact same mechanics just with a different set of monsters (Skeleton Archers, Demon Lords, Dark Priests and Razorwings). Once those are complete, I have to do another set of Lieutenant AI cards (the 3 Farrows). Then, I need to play test it a few times, then it would be ready for public

-shnar
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Roland Belmont
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Very nice, love the inclusion of Dark Priests, they're one of my all time favorite descent monsters. Also a big fan of all three Farrows together, sounds mighty epic, looking forward to seeing the final product.
 
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Victor Lesperance
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I feel sadness now. I was hoping to introduce 1st edition to a new group of players. They ended up micromanaging every move, so the game ended up taking 7 hours to play the intro scenario. At the end they said they'd prefer 2nd edition because this game moves too slow and takes too long.

But they did the same thing to Zombicide last week. That game ran 6.5 hours and they complained it was too slow and long.

(I usually play Descent in 4ish hours, and Zombicide in 2-3.)

Now they don't want either coming out on game day. I need to introduce timers. I think their own play style is ruining their own game sessions. Both of these games should be tense and exciting. Instead, they're going to sit in my closet.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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6.5 hours for Zombicide?!? What??? Maybe they need a game with fewer choices? Like the D&D games?

-shnar
 
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Jacob Gowans
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Maybe time for a new group?
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voidreturn
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beetelgeuse wrote:
Hello all, I just want to start off by saying I love Descent 1st Edition with a rabid passion (I own all expansions, all RtL/SoB lieutenant miniatures, quest compendium, all promo characters, etc.)


beetelgeuse wrote:

another reason 2nd edition pisses me off so much is that it's like what $80 right now and they represent the BIG MIGHTY FEARSOME lieutenants as.......a 2 dimensional cardboard token. oh whoops they're sold separately. I can just feel the big fat fantasy flight middle finger being shoved into my freaking face


beetelgeuse wrote:
I realize 1st edition did this as well and yes I was pissed about it, especially because it was SUCH a pain in the ASS to hunt down all the RtL lieutenants (I'm looking at YOU ALRIC!!!)...but after playing RtL after getting all the miniatures, all was forgiven.


What? How is this any different than what they did with first edition? Not only do you now get the resin mini, but you also get plot cards, for less than the first edition metal lieutenants. You bought into it then and enjoyed it at the end, why would you expect any less now? Besides, none of them are required to enjoy the game.

beetelgeuse wrote:
It's just that for me personally 2nd edition felt like Descent for kids (I'm 32) It also didn't help that the new artwork looks so freaking childish and cartoony.


What part of the art is childish to you? I'm the same age and I disagree. Second edition requires much more thought and planning than first. First edition strikes me as something someone would start playing if they don't want to invest the time into an actual RPG. Second edition is heavy on the strategy and requires much more thought than first edition. I don't think anything about the art smacks of childishness.

beetelgeuse wrote:
Basically I was just curious if all the new expansions remedy a lot of the issues us 1st edition lovers had with 2nd edition or if it's still....weak sauce.


What exactly do you not like about second edition?? I tried out first and it's far inferior to 2nd edition. Mostly, there is more quest variety, more hero variety, and it takes significantly less time. To me, 1st edition plays like the older 6-hour slogfests that are much less popular now (for a reason, you spend way too much time waiting to actually play).
 
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Jim Ant
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beetelgeuse wrote:
holy mother of god I hated that game. now this isn't a rant on how much I despise 2nd edition . . .

(I actually completed the whole campaign before getting rid of it)
I LOVED the new class system . . .

I need my descent fix so bad but if 2nd edition hasn't been VASTLY improved even after all these expansions....sigh...I will just have to continue living life descentless cry


Strong emotions.

Brief answer from someone who owns all of D2e and has also played original Descent (no AC which I deeply regret but my friends would not budge from their preference for Runebound) and I actually like both games. I'm not really a "hater" by nature though, so my answer may not satisfy you.

First, if you played the original D2e campaign and then dumped the game because you hated it, you will not like it any better today.

Second, on Shnar's positive review of the co-op Game Night Kit, which now has two releases out (to stores), I would say that you might take that with a small grain of salt. Shnar describes himself as a D2e hater, although my own impression of Shnar from reading his many posts is that he's rather fair-minded in his assessments and is certainly not an extreme hater of D2e, esp. given his obvious love for GNK co-op.

GNK *is* D2e, there's no getting around it. As for Shnar's very impressive photo, it is misleading (as he acknowledges) because it shows a complete map of a finished game. On your actual tabletop, you will be playing the game on very small tiles most of the time. Occasionally the game puts several tiles together and the Finale is on a bigger map. But once you finish a tile and your heroes have moved on, you absolutely will *never* return to that tile, you will remove it from the table.

I also love the GNK and so do the people I play D2e with. They've also played a tiny bit of original Descent and they're intrigued enough by the game that we'll probably get into it a little more this winter.

But GNK is D2e. The primary difference (to my mind) is that it allows you to sit down at table for a very long afternoon/evening and play through the equivalent of an entire D2e campaign in one sitting.

BTW, if, as you say, you loved the class system in D2e, then there is an obvious appeal here for you with the GNK, because it gives you the opportunity to try out all the classes and class combos, game after game. And yes, even the same "scenario" will seem fresh after multiple plays if you have a genuine interest in trying various classes.

I note that you're in California. If you happen to live anywhere near Redding, drop me a line and we could arrange a game with you at our LGS so you could experience the GNK (both versions) for yourself.


 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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The co-op though changes a few things in Descent that our group really, really disliked. These changes have been for the better, at least for us:
- Incentive in the mechanics for killing monsters
- Ability to find/gain treasure mid-game
- Ability to earn/spend XP mid-game
- A large, epic map in one sitting
- No need for a 20hr+ campaign for the "best" parts of D2E

While it's true you won't be backtracking in the current 2 co-ops, that doesn't mean a new one might not come out that has forking paths or back tracking goals. It wouldn't be hard to have a lot of Peril cards that spawn monsters (to take care of a 'boring' backtrack period). The mechanics are in place for quite a few different types of quests. And at GenCon, FFG said the coop was very successful, so they will be putting more out, and I imagine each one will have unique mechanics (the latest had a healing NPC you had to protect the whole map).

But you are correct, the current 2 games you can quite easily tear down old parts of the map as you play. Some feel it a feature though, the ability to play a "large" map without really needing a large table. Though our group loves seeing the whole thing. It's just cool.

So yes, it is D2E, but the tactical side of the game has never been a problem with our group (i.e. actions, attacking, skills, etc). Just the morphs from a traditional dungeon crawl to a more adventure game. But as always, it may not appeal, so try it before you buy it

-shnar




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voidreturn
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I've played the GNK a bunch and my feedback is it scratches the Descent itch in one afternoon, but it's not the same as a campaign.

However, I should point out that it is totally possible to let someone play the typical OL instead of using the AI cards. You might need some re-balancing of the doom/fate counters and room time limits if you allow OL decks as well (otherwise, just let the OL play the monsters and see if he can inflict doom/fate/peril on the heroes).

I would not say that it "fixes" Descent 2e in any way as I do not see 2e needing a fix in that vein (I do think there needs to be some attention paid to the OL balance though).
 
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Jim Ant
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shnar wrote:

While it's true you won't be backtracking in the current 2 co-ops, that doesn't mean a new one might not come out that has forking paths or back tracking goals. . . . And at GenCon, FFG said the coop was very successful, so they will be putting more out
-shnar

Best news yet! And meanwhile if *somebody* is working on a new scenario for this system, he might include a backtrack feature cool

 
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